Jag's Secret Sauce [The Zero Dot Podcast #24]

And he talks first about how he would do like a comedic bit or a comedic standup.

And if he got a lot of laughs, he's like, yeah, great.

I killed it that day.

But then he'd survey people later and they go, yeah, it was fine.

But then he'd do another standup routine and he would be very quiet.

He wouldn't get that many laughs and, I bombed.

I just totally bombed.

Review comes out later.

Most incredible, amazing thing he'd ever done.

And he couldn't reconcile the fact that his feeling of what people thought about him never
matched what the actual reaction was.

Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, boys and girls, everyone of all ages, welcome to the
Zero Dot Podcast, where we are part of Team Human.

When the chips are down, our resources are their lowest.

That's when we remind ourselves that's when we are actually our strongest.

My name's Sam, this is Daniel, and

no, John once again is not here right now, but I promise you he's fighting battles in John
land and we're here to kind of defend the fortress of zero dot for him on his behalf and

we will wish him John well when he can come back.

We've got the seat reserved right for him.

Daniel, how you doing today?

Man, I'm uh okay.

I'm okay.

Woke up feeling quite positive today.

May have something to do with the fact that I had food poisoning and now I don't have food
poisoning.

And the difference between those two states is it's big.

It's big.

Like having food poisoning and not having food poisoning, it's not a difficult choice to
make.

And so I feel.

feels when one goes from being violently ill to, hey, I feel normal again is like such an
amazing rush that like, okay, I don't want us ever to feel finally ill ever again, but

like, imagine if we could feel that transformation all the time whenever we want to, would
that just make us feel so good all the time?

It's amazing.

feel so clean.

I feel so pure.

Like I could stand up without feeling nauseous.

I could keep food down.

I know I could drink things that aren't water.

I like drinking water.

I love drinking water, but I want a coffee every now and then.

I want one of those sweet white monsters that I am trapped in the vice grip of.

But yeah, I feel better.

Thank you for asking.

With that context now given, I'll go from saying that I feel okay and good to I feel
better.

I feel much better.

Yeah, how are you doing?

How are you doing?

am doing great, I don't have any crazy travel stories like before that I had to share, so
I'm okay, I got some sleep.

Wow.

Getting sleep confirmed good.

Yes.

I'm glad.

I'm glad because I the last time they had a travel story, it was an episode.

was a whole thing.

uh

that's right And for those that are confused about what we're talking about We do have an
episode about that do make sure to check our zero dot podcast for that where we detail my

crazy Travel situation, but for those of you that did not let me just give you the quick
recap I needed to be in a couple places in one week and uh TSA the airlines weather all

had different kinds of plans where towards the very end I was running on literally no
sleep

I was driving late into the night, arriving to my final engagement with only 45 minutes
left to spare, and there was one angel, I call her an angel, who someone who is at the

front desk of this hotel.

Her name was Alina.

She was the first and only person to really give me any kind of empathy and kindness of
any kind, and I'm so thankful for her.

But what I didn't say, because this came out later, as you might know, I'm a businessman
and I have to do my expenses, and Daniel, wouldn't you know that when I did my expenses, I

looked at my invoice for the hotel stay,

She didn't charge me anything.

Zero dollars.

dime, nothing.

That's brilliant.

I know she was just, she was doing that.

She was like, I'm not going to charge him.

And then she sat there she was like, I can't wait for him to see that.

I can't wait for him to find that.

That must've been so nice to see when you were like sitting down to go through the grunt
work of like doing all your, doing your filings and all that kind of stuff, just to see

that nice little surprise, that little.

confused because I'm like, wait, this says zero.

I must have lost the real invoice somewhere.

And I'm looking, I'm looking.

And then I actually type my confirmation code into the hotel's website and nope, it's
zero.

There's nothing there.

And here's the crazy thing, Daniel.

I distinctly remember in my half stupor sleep and I'm like, she was being so nice.

She said, you know, you're getting in so late.

Let me give you an extended stay so you can check out late.

I really appreciate that Alina.

but I have about 45 minutes before I have to get out the door and do my teaching
engagement.

I don't have the time.

I just need a bed rest for 20 minutes, a quick shower, and I'm out of here.

And as one might know, when you check into a hotel that late, like four in the morning,
the system usually automatically cancels your reservation from before because you haven't

arrived before midnight.

Same thing happened here.

She says, okay, I found your old reservation.

We did cancel it.

Oh, but good news.

I'm going to get you a cheaper rate.

That's all she said.

I'm going to get you a cheaper rate.

And then turns out that cheap rate was basically zero dollars.

I'm like, holy cow.

That was, she was not wrong.

fact, cheaper rate, a much cheaper rate, which is wonderful.

um

that's a big deal because some cleaning lady has to go in there and clean the room even
though I only used it for like two hours max.

Like that's a huge gesture on their part but still it was massive, it was huge.

The little things matter.

They really do.

They matter and they add up to become big things.

That's how size works.

You learn something new every day here.

Yeah.

Well, it's been a week and I think it's about time we get ourselves some really good news.

And Daniel, I have some really exciting news for us.

In fact, you're probably aware of it.

It's such big, awesome news.

For literally the first time since I believe, what did I say?

1972, I think it was 1972, NASA, the Artemis 2 took launch just a few days ago.

making its departure venture into space for the first time since 1972.

It was Apollo 17, 1972 was the last time humans have departed the Earth orbit.

And here we have a multidiverse group of Reed, Victor, Christina, and Jeremy are now on
their precise trajectory towards the moon, which is just really exciting because Daniel,

in my lifetime, in your lifetime, we've never really seen that happen.

And the few times we've seen attempts of that, it has not gone well.

Yeah, I think a lot of people were kind of holding their breath watching.

I was.

uh I so badly wanted this to work because it's just not only is it something bright in a
literally it's extremely bright, but it's a bright spot in.

em

what has been a troublesome year so far, I will say.

Not only that, but it's just such a showcase of everything that humans are good at.

The ingenuity, the construction, the planning, working together to make this happen.

I can't begin to imagine the amount of people, the amount of hours it took, the amount of
great minds that it took.

It's so lovely to see and to see it work, to see it come to fruition.

If it can make us feel that way, the people who are actually there involved working like
they should be, that's a life-defining moment.

I don't think it matters how involved you were, if you can say that you were involved in
that.

I think that's just an absolute...

Like I said, a life defining moment.

100%.

And to add to the fact that, uh how wonderful it is, you and I, Daniel, we're more on the
creative artsy-fartsy side of things, but this literally gives credence to the magic of

math, right?

Math made this happen.

Engineering, real smart scientists getting all the trajectories 100 % right.

uh It's magical.

or something that I am not equipped to deal with by far my worst subjects across my life.

So I'm always in awe of people who have got those minds that can just make numbers work.

It's, you know, they see a math problem and it's, I see a math problem, maths problem, I
should say, cause I'm British.

If I see a maths problem, I run for the hills.

That's scary to me.

Want me to do anything more than the basics?

That's a calculator.

Thank you.

em It's...

But to see...

I had a maths teacher when I was a kid and he was just so fun because we know this.

If someone is teaching something and you can sense their passion for it and you can sense
their excitement for it, it doesn't matter what the subject is, it makes it interesting.

But I just, I remember it just gets so excited about symbols and equations and all this
kind of, was just thinking, this is amazing.

I'm never going to do this.

It was just, it was lovely to watch him work.

Yeah.

and to go through it all.

But boy is my mind not wired that way, which is okay, because it's wired well for other
things instead.

Sure, yeah.

You remind me of my favorite math teacher, Mr.

Trajani, which if you're around, I hope you're doing well.

He's my favorite math teacher because like what you just described, he was excited about
math, but he would always try to make sure he would explain it in a way that would make

sense to you as a person who'd be working as an adult, like how that would make sense for
you.

He'd try to make sure it's practical.

I remember he was very uh conscious about the curriculum that we had to show.

He I'm not going to teach you XYZ thing because that's not going to come up in your real
life, but I'm going to show you this, like how to do expenses, how to do your finances,

how to do this.

Like this is going to matter to you.

if more people had that.

we would have so far fewer issues with so many things.

I think making things like maths applicable to real life.

know, if you do want to go right into the nitty gritty of things, awesome.

That's cool.

For the everyman, like if they can learn how to like do their taxes, if they can learn how
to do

simple equations and stuff in their head for grocery shopping or whatever you want.

To make it applicable to real life is so awesome.

I think it's so important and it's often missed.

It's often just like you see all these algebraic equations on the board and you're like,
when am I going to need that?

And the answer is never.

Most of the time the answer is

Never, unless you are someone working on Artemis 2.

So I think that's so important.

And I think that should be more widespread as a practice.

Yeah, for sure.

Jajani was amazing because he didn't just show us that.

also, he actually showed us how to, how to be mindful for scams.

Like he would show us that you go to a shop and it says up to 90 % off and he goes, okay,
get your calculator out and actually ask them to do the math for you.

And it's never 90%.

What they actually mean is they give you a 10 % discount here, then another 15 % and a 20,
et cetera.

And those add up to 90, but that is not 90 % off the total cost.

Like he would show us all these cool things.

He chose how to calculate APY versus APR, like be on the lookout.

The real estate agents are out to get you.

Like it was awesome.

good.

It's just teaching people how to live, how to be a grown up in the world is so important.

And like I said, it's something that is unfortunately not in as many schools as it should
be.

And by as many, I mean all.

It should be at all, all schools, quite frankly.

I also want to give him one more shout out because he's one of the only math teachers I've
ever seen do this.

And if you are a math teacher that does this, thank you so much.

He would ask that you always showed your work for all of your tests.

And then what he would do is he'd look over your work and he'd look over your answer.

And if you got the answer wrong, he'd only give you like half off and then he would follow
your work logic.

And if you

Got it all right except for one small thing or like your foundation was flawed.

He'd give you a partial credit for it He says I don't want to double dingy for something
if you got one small thing off I want to still say you get some kind of credit for getting

some of the answer right which means your Logic and your follow-through was correct Just
one small thing was wrong and I love that about him and I think the world needs more of

that Yeah

Absolutely.

Also the acceptance that there can be multiple different ways to reach the same answer.

And they are all as valid as one another.

That's something, you it's like, oh, you got the right answer, but sure you're working out
and it could be completely different to the way that the teacher did it, but it's still

valid.

If you reach the same answer, that's just how your brain works.

That's just how your brain tackles that specific problem.

Absolutely.

Yeah

to be the way it's written on the board.

As someone with many convoluted backwards ways of doing things, if I reach the same
endpoint, then it's okay.

Exactly, exactly.

I may have sat there and been in hell for half an hour working on one problem, but I got
there.

I got there.

Speaking of things that took a while, Artemis II, once again, this launch from 1972, it's
been that long.

Call out here, Daniel and I were nervous.

A lot of people were nervous.

Also, it happened on April 1st of all days.

I don't know why they picked that day if I'm being perfectly honest.

I know that we typically don't have a lot of success showing a video, but I do want to
show one very quick clip to see if this goes okay.

There was actually someone who was aboard a passenger plane seeing the launch while it was
happening.

And the coolest thing isn't just what you're about to see and listen to folks.

It's the captain coming on the intercom to talk about it as people are watching it from
outside their window.

Let's take a quick listen right now.

There you see it right there coming out right from the peak, right from the passenger
lane.

They can see the plane or the Artemis.

It's already above the plane.

It's higher in the atmosphere.

That's flippin' awesome, man.

I don't have any other words for that.

so cool.

You can hear how excited he is.

He's so stoked.

Imagine trying to plan your schedule so you always can be there nearing a launch and it
just always gets canceled.

That's how it's been.

It's always been canceled or something awful has happened.

Yeah, I'm just...

to those NASA engineers, those NASA astronauts, as we call them, that are out there right
now.

Yes, yeah, hopefully not just a successful launch, but a successful mission overall would
be wonderful.

Yeah.

Well, ah unfortunately, part of our job here at ZeroDot is keeping ourselves accountable,
and I would love to just end with only good news.

We're still going to have lots more good news to talk about, but I do think it's important
that we are privy to the issues that come up.

uh Daniel, have you heard what's happened in good old Kentucky in our area in the United
States?

Have you heard what's happened?

You know what?

I'm going to be an ignorant Brit.

it's off the top of my head, you just saying what's happening in Kentucky, honestly, it
might be that I've just missed

news broadcast where they spoke about it or something but I don't know so please tell me.

Probably for two reasons.

I misquoted.

It's not Kentucky.

It's Tennessee.

it's a similar issue.

Now you know.

So here's something that's crazy that's happened.

So uh a library director was fired for refusing by the board of directors for the library
for relocating controversial books out of the children's section.

She pleaded her case.

She said, hey, look.

uh

It's not up to us to determine whether this is, know, whether if it's the content we don't
like, it still would make it a children's book.

This is its own version of a censorship of some kind.

A lot of these books, I think it's something like 120 or so books or so that were
impacted.

The board was trying to move to the adult section because they promoted quote unquote
gender confusion or content involving LGBTQ plus themes.

This library director, Louanne James, pled her case and swiftly the board of directors
said, okay, you're fired.

That's what

Yes.

upon you reviewing that story, I have heard about this.

em It wasn't through the news.

was from, em obviously with that being a little bit more pinpoint local to that specific
region.

em But yeah, I did hear about this happening.

And I'll just say, do you know what helps with confusion?

Knowledge, understanding, learning from books maybe.

Yeah, baby.

Baby.

the...

Yep.

I'm just gonna leave it there.

I'm just gonna leave it at that.

Yeah.

So I want to quote Luanne James here, who in part of her defense said the following thing.

She said, public libraries serve as vital repositories of diverse ideas, both popular and
unpopular.

Restricting access to these materials through subjective relocation or removal constitutes
a violation of the community's right to information and a direct infringement on the

principles of free speech.

Our libraries are funded by and for the citizens.

Therefore, the right to access information free from government interference is a
protected hallmark of our democracy.

Mm-hmm.

We love you, Luann James.

You're super amazing.

Sadly, the board is quoted in saying, board has the authority and responsibility to
establish policy for the library system.

When a director refuses to carry out a duly adopted board decision, it undermines the
governance of the institution and cannot be ignored.

So they let go of her based on insubordination, they say.

Wow.

Brother, imagine, imagine if I was in charge of things, right?

vegan in case you didn't know.

Now you do know.

How do you know if someone's vegan?

Don't worry, they'll tell you.

I've done exactly, I've done exactly that.

It's not that it comes up naturally in conversation all the time anyway.

Imagine if I was in charge and I ordered them.

I was like, all the cookbooks that have non-vegan recipes, get them out.

Get them out.

That's terrible.

And people were just like, hey man, like there's recipes in there that are like still
useful and you could, you could, you could even like take them and change them to make

them meat free and dairy free and it's still relevant information and it's good to
preserve information regardless.

Um, and I was like, not listening to me.

Fired.

Like, dude, it's ridiculous.

Nobody, nobody who has ever wanted to like burn a book or ban a book, nobody has ever had
good interests in mind.

No.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, we could spend all day talking about this, but I mean, like, I want
everything archived.

I want the library to have everything.

um I try to donate to my library as much as I can so they have stuff.

um There's a lot of, I don't know if you know this, guys, but there's gonna be things I
read, watch, even video games.

I don't like, but that's okay.

I want people to have access to it.

Crazy thought, I know.

Wow, because maybe someone else might like it.

And it's weird how it doesn't impact my life at all.

em man.

Yeah.

And also if we all unanimously don't like it, it's still important to have it so we remind
ourselves that we don't like it.

Because if we just expunge it, then we forget, right?

Right?

if you erase it, then how will you not let it happen again?

Almost like what's happening right now and on a geopolitical scale, but uh It's bad news,
but I do want to say I am proud of Luanne James for sticking up for what she believes in

I'm proud of her for doing what was right to her visage uh in a separate quote She has
stated in saying she's exploring legal options for herself because what she believes

happened was illegal uh And I can also say from another anecdote from someone who will
remain nameless I know that this person I have a friend who worked in the

This is funny enough, the fraud department for Washington, DC, and during the Doge
expunging of certain things, she was asked to do something that she did not fundamentally

agree with.

And the person at Doge says, you don't have a right to an opinion here.

You are a public servant.

You do what we say or we're firing you.

And she said, okay, then fire me.

And she did.

She got fired.

but she's proud of her decision because she's like, this is not right what you're asking
me to do.

So we need people like this.

This is important.

Um, sadly I'm

I don't know what's going to happen with these particular books.

might actually, they might get someone else in charge and move the books.

But at least someone's taking a stand and we appreciate that here at ZeroDoc.

Yeah, very much so.

It's...

Look.

It's a very serious issue.

I really appreciate you bringing it up, bringing light to it.

I know that I like to be a bit silly.

I like to do the whole...

I like to lay the sarcasm on thick, as you know.

I like to make a laugh and a joke about it.

That's how I deal with things.

Through humour.

Doesn't mean it's not very, very important.

So if ever you hear me throwing jokes around and taking cheeky jabs at things and stuff,
like, I do take it very, very seriously.

It's just my way of dealing with the...

with the terrible news that is funneled towards my face at an alarming rate every day.

So yeah.

For sure.

And I would say to anyone that's a Zero Dot member, uh support your libraries and support
freedom of access to information.

I'm a big preservationist.

I believe we should preserve original works of things, even if we don't agree with them.

Have access to them in whatever way you can.

That's really powerful.

Absolutely.

Speaking of your local library, I'll tell you what you could do.

Make a zine.

Make a cool zine.

And do know where it's got a photocopier?

Library.

Library, nothing's stopping you.

You get to support your library.

You get to make something cool.

Hand it out to your friends.

It can be about anything.

It can be about anything you want.

It's so cool.

I bought a zine the other month for like two pounds and it was all about mushrooms.

Ooh.

It was super cool.

I like mushrooms.

I like zines.

I was like, I'll take that.

Thank you.

It's so fun.

Just do something cool.

Your library has so many things that people don't use.

So, so many things.

I'm pretty sure that a lot of libraries

they carry role-playing games and tabletop games and other such the like.

So there's all sorts you can do at your library.

Just go in and speak to them and ask.

It's a great resource.

And the fact that not many people use them is a travesty, to be perfectly honest.

Absolutely.

Yeah use your library.

It's good folks be a member of a library if you don't have a membership They are free your
if you are a US citizen, especially you're paying taxes already on a library So you might

as well use it Use it Anyway, thank you.

Louann James.

You're a hero.

Thank you so much.

We're sorry for the bad news But we're glad people like you were doing what you got to do

Hell yeah.

With that then, think we can talk about, there's one more thing I wanna talk about.

That's not our main topic, but something, we do a good, we do a bad, we do the beautiful,
or like the main topic.

I have the weird, the quirky, the bizarre, something a little silly for us.

uh Daniel, are you familiar with the channel, Are Things Swell?

Actually, no, I'm not.

And in a minute, when you start talking, I'm going to be like, no, I do know, just like
the Tennessee thing.

No, I might know them when we get deeper into it, but off the top of my head, no, I don't.

That's perfectly fine.

I won't even bother playing a clip.

I recommend everyone go to Rthingswell YouTube.

It's a guy with 2,600 videos.

He has almost 10,000 subscribers.

And the reason I want to talk about this is that for the past, let me get the year right.

for seven years now since December 11th of 2018, every single day, he has uploaded a five
to 15 second clip on his YouTube saying the date and then saying things are swell today.

Every single day since December 11th, 2018.

So friends, if you go there right now, are things swell on April 2nd, 2026?

He will say today is April 2nd, 2026.

and things are swell today and just walk off camera every single time and that's

I love stuff like this.

love bizarre, hyper-specific, quirky things like this on the internet.

It's like the accounts on the unnamed website and Blue Sky that will post things like,
have you ever seen the little meme of, I think it's Daniel Craig introducing The Weeknd.

he's just like, The Weeknd.

And they post it every weekend.

And it just continues on and it's never any different.

It's reliable.

And I don't know, maybe it says something about me, but I laugh at it every single time.

Every time it comes up, I'm just like, there it is.

There's the weekend post.

It's still good.

And you know what?

It might be something super, super tiny.

And most people are just like, that's stupid.

it offers like a real sense of

comfort and familiarity and like

It's just so nice.

It's like no matter what's happening, I'm always going to see that silly little meme of
Daniel Craig introducing the weekend and it's and you know what?

It makes me think things as well.

I bought it back around eventually before I started rambling.

I did it.

That's good.

No, I mean, I remember seeing this channel two years ago and I don't remember how many
subscribers he had, but I think it was a lot less.

But now people are just like, dude, this is comforting.

This is lovely.

This is fantastic.

He's never, he'd never missed a single day.

You can see from the thumbnails I'm showing, he's just always in front of the same setup.

He just comes in and just says today's March 1st, 2026 and things are swell today and
walks off every single time.

It's brilliant.

Thank you, rthingswellguy.

Thank you for doing it.

I also love his thumbnail.

It says, Chris Preti is a swell guy.

Thank you very much.

That's a very nice gesture to say with that shirt.

And if you go to his website, if I could share this one, share this tab, this is the
official website.

It just says, welcome, enter.

You click enter and that's what you get.

Beautiful.

And is it always just updating with the latest one?

That's brilliant.

I just got flash banged with a entirely red screen.

um It was, I was not prepared.

um Not prepared.

But yeah, that's fantastic.

I love that.

Hello, it is me, Daniel, the man who you don't see quite so often on the podcast or hear
quite so often on the podcast, but you may have heard and seen quite a lot of me today.

You're welcome.

I'm here to give thanks to our Patreon supporters.

We have Robert Restant, we have David Rivera, we have William Kirk, JP, Aid, and God of
Grunts.

Thank you everyone so much as always for continuing to support us and what we do here, it
means a lot.

If you would like to be in their esteemed company, please consider heading over to our
Patreon at patreon.com slash zero dot media.

I'm talking slightly robotic, so I'll get it right so it functions in my mind properly.

Surely you couldn't tell.

Anyway, back to the episode.

So good, so good.

All right.

Well, I thought we'd have that nice little palate cleanser Always good to have that remind
ourselves of the quirky the weird All that other stuff, but now let's talk about our main

topic or rather our point of interest em Daniel you know a little bit what we're gonna
talk about I'm gonna ask you a question in just a little bit But em yesterday we talked a

bit about photography and I'm a big fan of photography and today I thought you know what
what parallels can we have in other creative fields and other artists doing wonderful

things?

And I started turning my attention over to painters.

What about you, uh Daniel?

I'm a terrible painter.

I get messy, I get frustrated.

There's a whole process to adding layer upon layer upon layer.

So I always admire painters that can do this, right?

Especially in the olden days when there wasn't that good old Photoshop around, right?

Like, you're all the real ones as far as I'm concerned.

As I was thinking about this and looking through some of my favorite paintings, I came
across the work of John Atkinson Grimshaw.

Are you familiar with that individual, my friend Danny?

no I am not but the name alone is superb it is exquisite to say John was it John did you
say first first yes John John I didn't know whether I just had John in my mind because I

miss our dear friend so much um John Atkinson Grimshaw I think it's Grimshaw

That's, it's like dripping in Gothic intrigue.

I love it.

Yeah, yeah.

uh I'm gonna be using sources from our friend's Wikipedia right now, because if, have we
talked about this yet?

Wikipedia is anti-artificial intelligence, anti-learning language models, and we want to
support Wikipedia because it is a uh source of some kind.

This is a good picture of our good friend Grimshaw.

uh What a nice little man right there.

Love the, love the, that's not a man-chee, is it?

What kind of beard is that when it's long like...

Um, you know, I don't know the specifics because obviously like that shape at the front,
that's a goatee.

Um, but I don't know what length it becomes something else.

So I'm just going to call it a long goatee.

Yeah, sure, sure, sure.

I'm gonna look at some paintings he's had right here.

For my listeners at home, I'll try to describe them to you, but I mean, we see this
painting called one of his paintings of Nostrope Old Hall.

uh Lovely bright colors.

The green is just so bright here.

You see the castle, I guess it's a manor or an old hall of some kind.

Has a picturesque quality to it, wouldn't you say, Daniel?

Picturesque?

Yes, picturesque.

Yes, very picturesque.

I'm pretty sure I use the word picturesque to describe something in the photography
episode.

don't hate that word.

I think it's fine.

We've got, you know, Glasgow, Saturday Night, a very popular piece.

Here you see Glasgow.

Glasgow, sorry.

Apologies, Glasgow.

Glasgow, Glasgow.

It's okay.

You can pick me up on American pronunciation whenever you want.

em

there's a town in Pennsylvania called, and if you say it as it's spelled, Lancaster.

But that's not how the locals call it.

It's Lancaster.

Lancaster.

Yeah, okay.

You always call it Lancaster.

Don't call it Lancaster.

We always know that you're not from town if that's what you call it.

uh We see here Saturday night, a beautiful, I guess, looks like it might be an evening.

I don't know.

uh

You've got some ships in the pier.

You've got some horses on buggies.

You've got some shops open, some people with hats and umbrellas.

Again, very picturesque, beautiful.

The colors are so bright and vibrant.

it's gorgeous.

I just want to...

And you'll see this as you go through these paintings.

You being Sam, myself, and people watching.

The colours are gorgeous.

They're very rich.

But it's the...

Oh my.

The reflections and the bounce lighting and all of this that he's...

It's...

phenomenal.

Those stained glass windows of the pubs that are like and the light is spilling onto the
cobbles on the street is it's breaking my mind.

It's so beautiful.

I love it.

I love that.

That's something that I'm really drawn to in these paintings I'm finding is the use of
lighting is just sublime.

The lighting, the coloring, this is the ironbound shore.

A beautiful color of uh some blues and greens and oranges and even purples in the clouds.

The detail of the rocks here is uncanny to me, Daniel.

Like, holy cow.

If you were to tell me, I would think this is just a fuzzy, slightly out of focus
photograph, but this is a painting, an actual painting.

Beautiful, look at that wave.

oh Yeah, look at that wave.

Take the time, take the time.

Observe the wave.

know that listeners if you can't see anything.

It's actually all your fault You chose to be a listener.

No, I'm just kidding.

another it's just wonderful detail here is beautifully magnificent I'm gonna show just a
few more before we get into kind of the reason why I'm bringing up this artist in just a

little bit I love this piece the woodland near Leeds Again, the the green and the bluish
green just pops like in ways that I don't typically see with this

this type of painting.

This is from 1869.

like teal kind of colour on that tree in the back is...

it's almost like fluorescent, it's like neon?

It's dipping its toes into the neons and the fluorescents, it's very...

If you pointed to that in a paint pot or like on a palette or something and you were just
like, I'm going to use that on a tree.

I'd be like, are you painting like a cyberpunk hologram tree?

You wouldn't think it would work looking at this as part of the whole composition.

Boy, was that the right choice?

Like that is it works.

It works.

I don't know why it works, but it certainly works.

It's like he cranked the saturation up just a little bit in certain places and other
places he kept it really muted and it was a deliberate choice he made.

uh This is a beautiful piece, but let me just, this one really gets me.

This has like a Gothic noir look.

You see um at the park gate, 1878, uh someone appears to be approaching some kind of gate.

There's a manor or house in the background.

It looks like it's well into the twilight of night.

It looks like there's a full moon with tons of overcast clouds, but the full moon still
radiates through.

It's got this bluish,

greenish hue but then the ground is orange and yellow and mmm and there's a lot of
darkness a lot of light here happens.

Yeah, for our listeners,

I hope that our gushing over these paintings is enough to satiate you.

However, if it is not, I'm sure you can either search up this man's name and view these
paintings, or we will probably leave some sort of link in the description, I assume.

Should probably be the producer's job to do something like that.

I don't know who the hell would do that.

But yeah, it's a...

Atkinson Grimshaw.

lived from September 1836 to October 1893, an English Victorian era artist best known for
his nocturnal scenes of urban landscapes.

He was called a quote, remarkable and imaginative painter by critic and historian
Christopher Wood from Victorian Painting, 1999.

Let's um see, hold on.

James McNeill Whistler, whom Grimshaw worked with in his Chelsea studio stated quote,

I considered myself the inventor of nocturnes, which I suppose is a type of painting you
make, a landscape painting, nocturnal painting, until I saw, and I love this, nickname

Grimmy, Grimmy's Moonlight Pictures.

So he had a nickname for him, called him Grimmy.

Yep.

And he also had the name of Jag, because his initials are J-A-G.

Not to be confused with the television show, Jag.

Or the car, absolutely, Jaguaw.

This guy gets more and more...

I never thought I'd be so jealous of a dead guy.

Like, this is...

The name, I was like, that's an amazing name.

And then you were just like, but wait, he also had a cool nickname and another cool
nickname.

This guy's just made of names.

He's wonderful.

Absolutely, and then it talking about his legacy.

This is again from Wikipedia Grimshaw left behind no letters journals or papers his
reputation rested on Completely on his legacy based on his townscapes that he drew There

was a revival of interest in his work in the second half of the 20th century with several
important exhibitions devoted to it a retrospective exhibition called Atkinson Grimshaw

painter of moonlight ran from

6th of April to September of 2011 at the Mercer Art Gallery in Harrowgate and subsequently
in the Gidol Art Gallery in London, if I'm pronouncing that correctly.

um So he's got a reputation.

People have kind of discovered him.

The art world loves this guy.

um But there's something funny about his work.

And when I say funny, I mean, there's a reason why he's not quite as popular.

as we'd like him to be.

Because we're looking at the artwork, Daniel.

I'm loving it.

It's beautiful.

I'm awestruck by it.

It's incredible.

You're worrying me now.

Because I'm just, I've spent so long as someone who creates art myself just gushing over
these paintings just, oh, this is gorgeous.

Look at the use of lighting.

This is so beautiful.

This is complex.

This is deep.

It's uh immaculate.

And then I've just got this horrible pit in my stomach that you're going to turn around
and just be like, joke.

It was an

a freaking 1800s gen AI somehow.

Like, I don't know, was a horsepower generative AI model.

Well, I won't let you dang I won't leave you or our listeners or viewers dangling for too
much longer But I think what we're going to find as I reveal this little tidbit of detail

is Not I would I'm let you decide Daniel, but not anything this person has actually done
In fact, this person is not hidden anything but rather public perceptions of them in fact

off the call we were just talking about being an artist and having the bravery of being
misunderstood and I think it's an argument can be made that his work and his process is

often misunderstood

So the reason why this Grimshaw, John Atkinson Grimshaw, Grimmy or Jag, isn't quite as
well renowned as I think many of us would like him to be, is this tidbit right here.

quoting from Wikipedia, though entirely self-taught, he is known to have openly, keyword
openly, used a camera, obscura or lenses to project scenes onto canvas.

which made up for his shortcomings as a draftsman and his imperfect knowledge of
perspective.

Now here's where things get funny.

This is a technique which famous artists Caravaggio, if I'm pronouncing it correctly,
Michelangelo Caravaggio, as well as Vermeer, also known as Johannes Vermeer, also did, but

they did it in secret.

They didn't want anyone to know that's what they did.

Grimshaw had no problem just saying, is absolutely how I'm doing it.

This is how I'm making this painting.

uh And this technique that uh Caravaggio and Vermeer were suspected of used in secret,

was condemned by a number of Grimshaw's contemporaries who believed it demonstrated less
skill than painting by eye, with some saying his paintings appeared to, quote, show no

marks of handling or brushwork, while others, quote, were doubtful whether they could be
accepted as paintings at all.

These are quotes.

At all.

At all.

Finally, however, many recognized his mastery of color.

lighting and shadow, as well as his unique ability to provoke strong emotional responses
in the viewer.

And you just heard and saw us do that right here live on this recording.

Even though I've seen some of these paintings, I was still just drawn by these things.

And yes, absolutely strong response right there.

But I wanna pause there because that's the controversial thing.

And Daniel, you are the visual artist of this enterprise.

As that information is revealed to you, what are your thoughts?

Okay, so first off, the...

Well, I hadn't seen these paintings prior.

I may have at some point.

I was saying to Sam before we recorded the episode that when I first saw, he posted a
preview of like four of the paintings in a channel that we've got access to.

I, upon first seeing them, it kind of pinged something off in the back of my mind.

a little ping of familiarity that I might have seen these before.

There was some weird sense that I witnessed these paintings at some point in my life, but
I just couldn't...

couldn't dig down and find where from or when.

So, but as far as my memory allows me to know, this is the first time that I'm seeing
these paintings.

So my reactions to saying, the lighting, it's amazing, it's so gorgeous.

some of those paintings that were in that slideshow that Sam was showing, I didn't see
prior to the recording.

So those reactions were genuine.

When you were saying that people praised his use of lighting and such, it's 100 % genuine
from me.

I'd not seen them before.

So yeah.

In terms of

Right, there's so much, there's so much to say about this.

There is so much to say.

I know, I know.

Well, let me just, as you collect your thoughts, let me just remind us when I say the
camera obscura, that is very much the root of what a camera is and what would happen.

Sometimes this would be called a pinhole camera where some kind of image using light is
projected onto something.

In this case, it says a canvas.

Sometimes that canvas would actually be upside down because of the way the obscura lens
would work.

It would always do it kind of upside down.

It might give some color information.

It might not, it might not have, it might've only given black and white.

I don't know exactly.

But again, the detail is that, uh I'm sure Daniel's gonna talk about this, there's a
parallel here between this and like in today in the year 2026, people being sensitive

about tracing.

You don't trace, right?

That kind of thing.

Yeah.

uh And the idea is that there's many artists who would never admit to doing it.

Many, many artists who would never admit to tracing, many artists who would not admit to
using the camera obscura, but...

Grimshaw apparently never hit it.

In fact, he was, and let me get this right, he was, him and his son were elected members
of the Leeds Photographic Society in December of 1890.

So he embraced photography for what it was and then was using this as another medium.

Again, per Wikipedia, per someone's interpretation to overcome his own shortcomings of
perspective and other stuff, he was entirely self-taught.

uh

But didn't hide from it.

And I think because he didn't hide from it and he just let community, you know, let
society kind of shame him for a while, he didn't get to realize hundreds of years later, a

hundred years later in the 1950s, seems, people appreciating his work and the color and
the use and so forth.

I can say for myself, even knowing that fact about it, I'm still drawn to it.

uh I love what I'm seeing and I can see the choices he's making as we were talking about
the colors.

Like, I don't care.

he still put a layer of himself and his own intentionality into it that I'm like, it's
still a painting as far as I'm concerned.

And it might make me like it even more, not only because he was so-

and just kind of open about it and just saying, yeah, that's what I did to get this end
result.

Yep.

Look at that.

Awesome.

The problem solving and ways to get around your own shortcomings.

is something to be commended.

Like that is wonderful.

That's beautiful.

If you have trouble with perspective and that helped him to create those gorgeous
paintings, that's awesome because he worked his way around a problem that he was having to

create something beautiful.

And we might not have that beautiful thing if he hadn't worked around that problem.

We might still have something beautiful.

It might just be something different.

You don't know, but to land at that specific thing, those paintings that we viewed in the
exact form that they come out in, it required that he use the methods that he did.

I do not think there is any shame.

in tracing and if you think there is, you can fight nearly the entire comic book industry
with your fists.

Because boy howdy, let me tell you, the comic book industry is plastered with people, with
artists who use tracing on a daily basis.

It is nothing bad.

It is nothing bad at all.

Yeah.

Let me, uh, you're bringing that up.

you're, you're, you're bringing up a point that I want to talk about and I want to get a
visual for it for our, for our viewers right here.

Let me see if I can get it one moment for us.

But you talk about the comic book industry and like one of the most famous comic book
artists who sadly passed away in 2022, but was an absolute legend in the seventies,

eighties and onwards was a man by the name of Neil Adams, specifically for his work with
DC comics and his work with a Denny O'Neill, who is a famous writer for Batman, who

actually

Daniel Neal is famous for kind of cementing the idea that Batman doesn't use a gun.

uh Daniel Neal is like, no, for Batman to work, he can't use a gun.

can't kill people.

When prior iterations believed he probably should.

And Neal, I'm going to try to get some pictures of some Neal Adams work in just a moment
if I can.

But his work is just incredible.

I mean, he's drawn some of the most iconic pieces of art you've ever seen.

Hey, thanks so much for tuning in.

And I'm sure Sam, maybe Daniel has something really interesting to say, but I want to
interrupt this time right now to let you know that if you want more of our cool podcasts,

which by the way, we talk about a lot of cool stuff, stuff that's a little under the
radar, you can check out our Patreon at patreon.com slash zero dot media.

That's right.

If you join our Patreon for $3 and 99 cents or your regional equivalent, you get access to
longer extended versions of our podcast.

You also get them a little bit sooner.

That's right.

This podcast airs on Wednesdays and Patreon members get it on Mondays.

Plus in addition, you get to be part of our cool community, share your thoughts, feelings,
rationale for things, as well as share with us your questions about things.

And we'll be happy to showcase them on the podcast.

You get exclusivity right there.

then plus you get a sneak peek in some of our super secret projects we're working on.

That's right.

We're doing more than just a podcast, but you'll have to wait and see.

unless you're a Patreon member, then you get to see above everyone else.

Once again, it's patreon.com slash zero dot media.

We'll drop a link in the description for you.

We'd love to have you as a member.

Otherwise, everything we offer is free.

We wish you the best.

Cheers.

Here, I'll show this instead, so share this tab.

I mean, you see this image of Batman lunging for the sky.

You see this image right here of Batman clutching his hand after being hurt.

He's done this famous piece that you see all over the place where Batman is lunging
towards something.

um That's all Neil Adams.

And Neil Adams is quoted in saying, guys, guys, I trace.

I trace.

He talks about how he's in an office.

And they literally collect thousands upon thousands of magazines, specifically of
bodybuilder magazines.

And they go, okay, I'm just going to trace a bodybuilder in that position and I'll change
the face a little bit and I'll do this.

It's all traced.

Every single piece he's ever done has some element of tracing to it, he has said.

um And he embraces it as a tool.

And I remember hearing him say that and it was so liberating because I was like, oh, I
thought that

All this has to come from the brain.

You're not allowed to use any tools.

And hearing him go, no, use every single goddamn tool that you have.

Just use it.

Mm-hmm.

Like it's all on you.

If you need to use these tools to create something that you want to create, then do so.

And to say that in the age of AI might sound a little bit sketchy, but you know, maybe
we'll get into that sometime because I can prove that that still holds up.

But yeah, it's, tracing is not anything negative.

It's not anything to be ashamed of.

It's same as using pose references.

You know, you can get these like packs that people buy where they've got like the

the box heads and stuff like different angles and stuff like that that you can put
underneath your artwork to try and get a good feel for the anatomy and everything like

that.

It's okay.

If someone wants to take that and use it as a learning tool and then once they feel
comfortable, don't use it anymore, their art is valid.

If someone wants to continue using that for the rest of their life as the basis for their
artwork, their artwork is valid.

Absolutely.

I remember when I was learning how to draw Daniel, I literally thought that I was not a
good artist for as long as I couldn't draw a straight line.

And because I couldn't draw a straight line, I'm a bad artist.

And was Neil Adams and other people like, no, fuck that.

I can't draw a straight line.

Like, who fucking cares?

Like, use a ruler.

Funnily enough, art is subjective.

So who is anyone to say it's bad or good?

Really?

You know, these pressures that we put on ourselves and other people, well, that's not real
art.

Well, that's bad art.

That's not good enough to be art.

It's all art and it's all valid and it all serves a purpose and it has value.

It's something that I struggled with a lot.

you're a lot of the artists that I follow closely say very much the same thing.

They're just like, I don't know perspective for shit.

I don't know it.

And I don't think it's a big deal because I look at some of their artwork and I'm like,
that is phenomenal.

And they're probably sitting there while they're creating it just like, my God, I'm a
fraud.

Oh, can't do it.

no.

I'm not a real artist, I'll never be like the greats or the- I'll never create anything
worthwhile and I've got to take all these shortcuts to get to where I am and it's...

Oh no.

muscle anatomy thing or something.

Yeah.

God, it's...

No, it's still valid.

And you know what, oftentimes in fact, those shortcomings are merely things that later on
down the line coalesce and evolve to become your individual style.

They become recognisable as your style.

Say if someone wants to, you know, they can't draw, they can't draw the flowing lines of
an arm.

So they have, if you look at old like 90s guerrillas artwork from Jamie Hewlett, a lot of
the limbs are like, it's like a straight line, a straight line with like a point at the

elbow.

And it's like, it's pretty much just like two rectangles stuck together for an arm.

em

I'm grossly oversimplifying that.

There's a lot of intention in his work.

He's phenomenal.

Massively respect that artist.

But if I put a pen to paper and I drew that as an arm, I'd be like, what the hell am I
doing?

I can't show this to anyone.

Jamie Hewlett was just like, I'm going to put it out as the artwork for one of the biggest
bands in the world.

What you going to do?

And it's so iconic.

Yeah.

I look at those 90s guerrillas drawings now and I'm just like, oh, it's so recognisable as
Jamie Hewlett.

It's so perfect.

It's like, look at Mike Mignola's faces on his characters.

If you look at his mouths, they're just, it's just like an oval sometimes with a few lines
for teeth.

And like, you know, if someone drew that on the street and handed it to you, you'd just be
like, what the fuck is this?

Meanwhile, Mike Mignola's over there.

Publishing like Hellboy and all the most amazing comics you've ever seen.

But it's recognisable as his style.

But I bet you when he first started drawing like that, it felt like a shortcoming.

He got a lot of shit from other people and he got a lot of shit from himself.

Because it felt like a flaw.

It felt like a shortcoming.

This conversation is very healing for me, I think it's...

I'm hearing myself say these words and I'm like, damn, you write me.

Like, it's like, what feels like a flaw and what feels like a shortcoming?

It could be the thing that you are most recognised for and not in a negative way.

It could become something beautiful that you are known for and people respect you for, and
people then try to emulate.

Can you imagine your mistake or your shortcoming being so revered and so good that people
try to copy it?

What the hell?

That's so good.

I think, yeah, before I ramble on anymore, because I'm not usually the one to talk on this
podcast, but I appreciate you giving me the space just to kind of flush that out of my

system.

Because otherwise I'm going to stand here and I'm just going to throw artist name after
artist name and just be like, look at this guy, look at this person, look what they did.

So I will hand it back to you, my friend.

so nice.

No, I mean, I love that you're talking about this stuff.

I love that you're inspired.

You're saying all the things I want you to say because I want to point our attention to.

for those that listen and watch and don't know a little bit about what I do, I'm a public
speaker.

I'm a workshop teacher.

I'm an executive coach.

I delve in the science and the art of things.

like I have the social sciences, I have the data.

But I have to do this magic trick of like, how do I get you, Daniel, the person who's a
pessimist with your arms crossed, open to the idea that what we have to say is right and

it might be a good thing for you to have, right?

And every single workshop's different and there's a lot of different ways you can do this
in a lot of different facets.

But I've come to the conclusion that I wish I had learned a long time ago, which is you
kind of have to focus on you being the most interesting person in the room.

And if you are interesting, meaning you care about yourself and you focus on who you are
as a person, people lean in.

And I bring this up because I literally just saw this the other day.

uh Steve Martin, the famous comedian, just dropped a masterclass.

Some of the clips are on YouTube.

I won't play the clip here.

But one of his highlight clips, which we'll drop in our description if you want to watch,
called, Steve Martin Explains Why You Should Never Trust Your Own Read of the Audience.

And he talks first about how he would do like a comedic bit or a comedic standup.

And if he got a lot of laughs, he's like, yeah, great.

I killed it that day.

But then he'd survey people later and they go, yeah, it was fine.

But then he'd do another standup routine and he would be very quiet.

He wouldn't get that many laughs and, I bombed.

I just totally bombed.

Review comes out later.

Most incredible, amazing thing he'd ever done.

And he couldn't reconcile the fact that his feeling of what people thought about him never
matched what the actual reaction was.

And he had to learn that two things.

One, some people, they don't react right away.

It was incredible and amazing and I loved it, but I'm not going to laugh out loud about
it.

I got to think about it.

And the second thing is,

He's never going to be held to the standard of like what his storytelling is, what his
jokes are, what his structure is.

He's going to be held to the standard of his worst mistakes.

And when you are making your worst mistakes, you're flubbing, you're bombing, you're
making your whatever, that's when people see the real you and whether or not you're

interesting or not.

And if you're interesting, that's what they actually sign up for.

So like when Steve Martin has done a gig and it doesn't work out the way he thinks it was,
what he never understands, and you can't understand this.

People are paying attention to everything you're doing and they're focusing on who you are
as a person.

And that's what gets them involved with what you have to say and what you have to do and
what you have to perform.

And so when I bring that up, you know, it's about being interesting.

I love that Grimshaw not only did the camera obscure, which a lot of artists did, but
wasn't shy about it apparently.

Apparently he could be seen on the city streets literally painting with the light and
people go, what are you doing?

Like, I'm just making a painting.

He did not hide the fact that he was doing that.

uh I love the fact that he used that as a benchmark and we saw the colors and...

the way in which he saw things really come through and he made artistic choices there.

And I'm sad that he does not get the love that maybe he probably deserved at the time, but
I'm happy that I get to appreciate it now.

And I'm happy that Grimshaw got to do what he wanted to do.

We talk a lot on this channel about being authentic and being your real self, and there's
a lot of reasons why you should do it.

People respond well to it.

People like when they see authenticity.

We kind of get a whiff when something isn't quite right.

But honestly,

That's what makes you special.

That's what makes me special.

It's what makes Daniel special is the weird, authentic stuff.

I got feedback recently from a mentor of mine who gave me some coaching on my facilitation
in my public speaking style.

She gave me some great notes, some great notes.

Some of the notes though were like, oh, if you want me to fix that, I have to change who I
am as a person.

And I can't do that because I gotta be me.

And in order for me to be the best version of me, I have to let that happen.

Like I just have to let that happen.

So for instance, the example she gave was in one of my workshops I did, I asked a thought
provoking question.

I said, hey, and what do you guys think about that?

And I just waited and I waited and I waited and I waited and no one was saying anything.

And after a while I said, well, just so you know, guys, I'm the professional in the room.

I can do this all day.

And they all laughed a little bit, but then I waited some more and I waited some more and
I waited some more.

And she said, Sam, it got a little awkward after a while.

You should probably do something to keep the pace up." And I said, no, because I wanted
them to know I'm okay with silence and it's up to them to fill it.

And finally someone did.

And I think that's one of my superpowers.

I'm okay with that awkward silence.

And so lovely feedback, lovely notes.

I thank you so much.

Luis, she's a fantastic mentor, but I took that note and I went, if I change this about
me, then I'm going to lose something about me too.

And I have to decide I'm not going to do that right there and then.

And so all about that give and take of feedback.

So.

I really love Daniel, your perspective on this, because again, I thought you might have a
thought about this.

I fall into the trap to myself about thinking, okay, in order for me to be a real artist,
I have to do X, Y, Z thing without any other resources.

a real photographer uses film, maybe perhaps.

A real photographer doesn't need to be in the light room fixing things.

A real photographer gets their cropping right exactly in frame.

And that's just simply not the case.

You got to use the tools that work for you and be as human as you possibly can.

And what Daniel was saying,

People pick up on all the shortcuts and all the things that you do and that becomes your
trademark and that becomes your thing.

And that's kind of beautiful all in and of itself.

Wouldn't you say?

I would say and I did say mere moments ago and I did.

I did.

Well, amazing.

Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree.

And like I said, think, oh, just a very, it felt very nice.

I feel like I needed that today.

I felt like I needed to.

I needed to hear myself say that out loud.

I think that's really helped me.

Thanks me for helping me.

I appreciate you.

Good dude.

Yeah...

I mean, that's basically the main point I wanted to bring up and just kind of highlight
that beautiful artist, their method of doing it.

um And, you know, give everyone that's listening and watching permission to be the best
you you can possibly be.

Every time I've been disappointed in myself, it's been because I let myself try to be
someone that I wasn't.

And every time that I've been really proud of myself has been when I said, no, I'm going
to do it my way.

Not in a like a rebellious, like angry, like screw you way, but more like no.

Fred Durst or the Highway kind of way.

but it's more like there's a way this can be done that's going to be my way it'll be off
it'll be a little raw but you know it'll be have been mine and that's what people are

going to remember

Very well said, son, as always, as usual.

almost like we have a podcast or something.

It's almost as if you are a very good talkie man who does it professionally.

Well, maybe, maybe that's what it is.

em

though in that regard because I often when I do it digitally, I have a producer on hand
who helps me do some things.

And when we walk through the deck together and I'm like, okay, and then this part, gosh, a
lot of talky talky talky talk.

God, I talk too much.

And I always say that every time and he goes, dude, that's what you're being paid for.

I'm like, I know, but I kind of hate it.

it's like good old grimy, good old Jag standing there and just be like, God, I paint too
much.

It's what you do, man.

It's okay.

I do.

That's what people pay me for.

uh People say, my mentor was like, you know, you have such a musicality to your voice,
people lean in.

I'm like, thank you very much.

I appreciate that.

I've worked on that.

That didn't used to be the case.

I used to believe that...

I must deliver like I'm a captain of a seaship and you need my attention.

Let me make sure my voice is in the middle of the mic and I have this deep, I used to do
that.

I'm like, nah man, nah, be you, be you.

Yeah, be you.

If you, mean, be you if you are the captain of a seaship, like that's, that's totally
fine.

you, be you at the same time.

just hell yeah.

Oh, Strongman.

It always somehow comes back to Strongman.

Just I love for those of who aren't aware, maybe newer listeners and viewers head on back
and find the lore of Strongman.

I can't remember what episode he was in.

it what, what two?

Episode 2?

3?

Episode 2 or 3, you'll find the lore of Strongman and boy is it worth going back for.

I love that guy.

We gotta reach out and be like, can we bring on the show?

Can we talk to you?

That'd be fun.

I'd love to have Strongman on the show.

That would be so good.

but yes.

There we go, that'll do, that'll do.

All right.

All right, folks, well, that's been our episode.

really loved our conversations.

Daniel, I appreciate it, but like all things, they come to an end.

That's been the Zero Dot Podcast.

I'm Sam.

This is Daniel.

Hello, or goodbye.

John uh is here in spirit, but he'll be back next time.

ah You can check us out at thezerodotpodcast.com where all of our episodes are broadcast.

We're also on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, Pocket Cast, Amazon Music, YouTube.

We're basically everywhere.

Wherever you can find podcasts, that's where we are.

We also recommend going to our website, thezerodotpodcast.com to submit your questions.

We'd love to talk about your questions.

We'll talk about your questions about life, about professional challenges, everything you
want to talk about.

We want to talk about them for you.

You can also submit your questions at questions at thezero.podcast.com and we read every
single one.

And if you give us your information and you give us your question, we'll be happy to talk
about it here.

But until next time, make it a great week, stay on Team Human.

We'll see you.