Sustainability Through Grief [The Zero Dot Podcast #33]

Well, you know what they say.

We've got each other.

And that's a lot for love.

So give it a shot.

All that here on the Zero Dot Podcast.

Podcast for the quietly overwhelmed and the cautiously hopeful.

When our chips are down and resources are low, we are our most powerful.

Fighters of sanity, a balance of science and heart.

Welcome to Team Human.

This is the Zero Dot Podcast.

Welcome, welcome, welcome to the Zero Dot Podcast.

I am your host, the one and only.

Well, there's many of us, I think, about eight billion of us on this planet.

But I am Sam Kirk, your host today.

And well, sometimes you think you're alone.

Sometimes you think you have nothing to offer to the universe.

Sometimes you feel like you are in a log cabin in the woods screaming into the universe.

But turns out you might not be alone.

And today is one of those days where I do not think I am alone.

You are certainly not alone.

oh yes.

I think we all are significant.

Mm, okay.

Okay.

So we're gonna retcon yes last week's episode and definitely say there were significant.

See, this is how this works here at the Zero Dot Podcast.

We we give you the goods and if we make a retcon or uh a turn in the narrative or the
story, you only know the deeds if you follow every single episode.

Yeah, you gotta keep up.

We're we're we're gonna go left and and then we go right and then and then we go right
again just to confuse ya.

Course.

Yeah.

I mean, that's just kips for a really compelling narrative.

Well, um, for those that don't recognize that lovely voice, that is the voice of Crystal
Kirk.

Smartest person in the room, my lovely wife, human resources aficionado, and overall spicy
literature enthusiast.

Crystal, welcome back to the show.

Thank you having me back.

I must have done okay for you to invite me back.

You are you you've done more than okay.

So you are not the first person who's had a second appearance on the show, but you are the
first person to have had a second appearance on the show back to spicy back.

So that's pretty fantastic.

Wow.

I'm really honored.

Well, you did a great job and we we enjoyed having you on the show.

I enjoyed having you on the show.

You know, nepotism aside and all that Yeah.

Is it nepotism when it's husband and wife?

Or is it something I thought nepotism implied there was blood involved.

You don't think there's blood involved?

I mean, are we really going down that route?

We are three minutes into this podcast and we're already talking about that.

All right, fair enough.

Hey, look, we get into the spicy topics here here at the Zero Dot Podcast.

We do not shy away.

Before we get into today's episode, you know, about being together, sustainability, and
all that other good stuff.

How are you doing?

I'm doing good.

Um, you know, it's it's getting hot.

July July is upon stuff and there's a heat wave coming.

Um, not excited for that, but there's this lovely miracle of air conditioning that I am
going to selfishly enjoy for a while.

All of our Europeans are pretty upset at at that you saying that and pointing that out.

'Cause yes, we do have air conditioning here in the Americas.

We have very nice air conditioning.

Um, there was a time when we did not have nice air conditioning.

I remember those times.

Do you remember those times, huh?

I do remember those times.

And then before those times, I remember the times of no air conditioning.

Yes.

On the third floor of a house, um, with no ventilation of any kind, and we called those
three t-shirt days.

You woke up, showered, put on a t shirt, midday through you took another shower, put
another t shirt on, four or five o'clock, you showered one more time, put another t-shirt

on.

Yeah, I remember those days myself.

Yeah, they they were those are the days when you were looking for any kind of excuse that
you could imagine to go to a movie theater, to go to the mall.

Let's go to the mall.

See?

Yeah, yeah.

We we got the jams here, folks.

Uh any excuse we could do to kind of get corporate uh air conditioning.

But here in the East Coast-ishness of the United States, we are fortunate, we'll say, to
have very good air conditioning.

Um, I heard last week, so this is the week of

June 29th.

Last week, uh France scored a record high of 104 degrees a Fahrenheit, which is crazy for
them.

Um, we've gotten in the 110s before here in the sure in the Phillies and the New Yorks and
the Delawares and the Jerseys and the Upper Coasts here.

But yeah, that's certainly incredibly hot, especially if you're not used to it, and
especially if you don't have the infrastructure for it.

That is just not a good time.

But yeah, we've got hotter times coming up ahead.

fourth of July is just around the corner for us.

Woohoo, America two fifty.

We're not at all excited about that.

But uh that's gonna give us about a hundred and four to a hundred and five degree weather
during that period.

And that's exactly the time at which you want to be outside.

spoiler, we will not be outside for much of that, if anything.

Maybe with a kiddie pool.

I think we're we're looking into the finances of you know, we can't afford, you know, a
luxurious pool or even like a, you know, a

A Caribbean vacation, but a kiddie pool, mm, that Walmart special is looking pretty good,
right?

About thirty dollars.

I think I think we can swing it, honey.

I think we can swing that.

Yeah.

We might just do that.

Sit outside, get a nice little umbrella, drink a nice cool beverage and pretend like we
are somewhere that we are not, which is often the case here on the Zero Dot Podcast.

But we are a team human.

We respect the solidarity of all of us.

That we I firmly believe that we are strongest and we are we are most connected and most
powerful.

and so is with that, I think we should dive into some good news.

What do you think, my dear?

love to hear some good news.

I think I need some.

Absolutely.

Let's take a listen.

This news comes to us from Music Business Worldwide.com.

Japan passes copyright reform, giving performers and record companies royalties when
recordings play in public, including overseas.

This comes to us from June 19th by This Business Worldwide.com.

Giving us kind of some insight on new kind of logistics and trademark and copyright and
rights laws as it pertains to the music industry, as it pertains to Japan.

And Mandy writes here: quote, Japan has created a music right that will, for the first
time, require performers and record companies to be paid when their recordings are played

in public spaces, such as cafes, shops, hotels, and gyms.

She writes, the country's parliament enacted a revised copyright act on Wednesday, June
17th, two days prior.

Introducing what the government calls the record performance and communication right.

Until now, only songwriters, composers, and music publishers were paid when commercially
released music was played as background music in Japanese venues.

She says the performers and the labels behind those recordings received nothing for the
public plays at home or overseas.

So Japan's copyright framework separates authors' rights held by songwriters and composers
from neighboring rights held by re uh performers and record producers.

The new measure adds a payment right for the neighboring rights holders when a commercial
recording is played or transmitted in a public setting.

It runs alongside the author's right, whose background music royalties are collected in
Japan by J-A-S-R-A-C, or the Japanese Society for Rights of Authors, Composers, and

Publishers.

There's a bit more about this, but um honey, this is kind of interesting because in the
Americas, you know, cafes and public venues, they get fined significantly if they play any

kind of copyrighted music.

But all the music goes to the owner of the music, which is usually the record laborer, the
producer, the label of some kind.

This is a distinction here where it's saying, Hey, look, the label gets a cut of the
music, as always has been the case.

But now the rights owner of the original work, the creator, the artist, as we say, uh,
they are also entitled to a cut.

And it looks like this is being enacted um for the first time here in Japan.

And that's kind of cool.

That's really interesting.

I never really thought about how this is all broken down.

Um, I feel like yeah, I feel like it's like there's a lot of logistics to that, but I
guess, you know, it's really great that artists are being recognized and paid for their

work.

That's the most important thing here.

Absolutely.

I mean, when I worked worked in retail, worked in bartending, you we were you were not
allowed to play any kind of commercial music unless you had a license for it.

Um and then some places I worked for either didn't know that or neglectfully just ignored
it and they were making enough money, who cares if they had a license for it?

'Cause that stuff costs money.

But yeah, by by right and law here in the United States, playing any kind of commercial
music, you're you have to have a license for that.

If you're caught, you know, right handed.

The label will come after you.

But here there's the distinction.

You're right.

It's about the creative.

It's about the artist themselves, uh, versus the label.

And that's really cool.

You know, you probably know more about this than I do.

I I've only krips and drabs, but like Taylor Swift has had such an uphill battle and she's
won many of these battles when it came to the rights of her music and her label.

I mean, she re-recorded many of her albums and her songs because a different label owned
the rights to her original recordings and she couldn't get any of that back.

So she had to re record all that stuff.

Yeah.

And and I think about that and I think about A, it's awesome that she came out victorious
and was able to get her fans to rally behind that and buy her new brand new recordings of

the same exact songs.

It's a nice story, but at the same time, the question should remain, why?

Why should you have had to do that?

Well, there's actually a lot of discourse about um the amount of, you know, albums that
Taylor Swift has released and like whether it was worth it that she released basically the

same stuff and that, you know, if you buy the real album then you get more than what is
streaming on like a on a Spotify type service.

There's there's like a bunch of stuff that I'm I'm actually not very up on because I'm not
you know I you know, I appreciate

But I don't I appreciate the Swift.

I I love to watch the Swift.

Um I'll listen to some of the the the top hits from Taylor Swift.

Uh and and and I'll just leave it there because you don't want you don't want the Swifties
up on your butt now.

Absolutely.

We don't we we don't want to upset any Swifties here in our chat, um, in our discussion
today.

But we but we respect the swiftness, as we might say.

Uh but yeah, I mean, you know, when I think about this, I also think about the fact that
like as talented as you are as an artist, you have an uphill battle no matter what.

And if you happen to get a hit, which you know, Taylor Swift has many hits, but like if
you get one hit, I mean, that's like winning the lottery.

And there is no telling you'll be able to get a second hit.

And some people say, well, no, if you're talented, you'll get more hits.

Not really.

Sometimes logistically, like you are a talented, amazing, and incredible musician, but
people only remember you from like one thing.

Like Michael Jackson is a phenomenal performer and he's had many hits throughout his
career, but nothing touches his thriller album.

And Thriller was made in conjunction with himself, uh, Quincy Jones, and a and a bunch of
collaborative artists, and it was also came out at the right time at the right place.

And it's a a phenomenal piece of work.

You know, imagine if he had to fight for the rights of that entire album and try to
rebuild himself.

Um, again, I'm probably talking up my ass here, but I mean I just I think this is kind of
remarkable that Japan is ahead of us once again, the United States, in this regard,

because as it turns out, uh what's interesting about this is and this is quoting the
article again from Mandy, the government says the right has already been introduced in a

hundred and forty-two countries, and that among the OECD members.

Only Japan and the United States had not adopted it thus far, now leaving the United
States in the dust.

Japan is obviously now adopting this particular practice.

Um, this reform has been years in the making, they say.

Japan's cultural council had examined the right since 2023 before the cabinet approved the
bill back on May 15th.

So the House of Counselors, uh, counselors then passed it on Wednesday, June 17th,
completing its passage through the diet.

So

Um, a a long journey to get this bill passed, but I'm excited.

I'm excited for all the Japanese artists and all the creatives out there that are able to
get their their due diligence on that front.

we here at the Zero Dot, we love our artists.

We love our creatives.

We the world does not the world does not turn as beautifully without you.

So we we give credit to all those individuals.

Um we are pro-human here on this podcast.

Do you remember um during Trump's campaign the second time around, there was em that's a
good question.

Um he was I I think it was during one of the rallies, he was playing music and I forget
the artist, a female artist playing um her music.

Maybe it was Mariah Carey.

I'm just talking out of nowhere here.

Um, and they like sued for using that person's music.

Crow?

I mean, I feel like Crowe stole a lot of people's music and a lot of people were like,
Hey, you can't use my music.

there was one specific female artist that like legit maybe it was Celine Dion.

Oh that's mmm.

but somebody who like was very staunchly like, do not use my music at your rallies.

I do not support you and I you know, we just we stand a queen.

I wanna know the queen.

So there's a ton of artists that have historically objected, but yes, you're right, Celine
Dion.

ah Celine Dion and her management team publicly condemned Donald Trump for the
unauthorized use of her iconic song, My Heart Will Go On.

Oh.

At a 2024 campaign rally in Bozeman Bozeman, Montana.

Her team clarified that the usage was not authorized.

She does not endorse him, and cheekily added, quote, and really that song

Yo, we truly stand a queen because that is accurate information.

Why are you picking that song, dude?

Seriously, I I mean, m the words we could say about the era that we are in, the times that
we are in, is many, I suppose.

And that's why we have a podcast about it.

But yes, um, represent all the artists that's that will that will be passionate about
their work, how it is used, and are passionate about the rights that they should have for

that work.

Um, I'm always a fan of that.

Um, you when you create a thing, I'd

I don't think it's a very controversial thing to say you deserve the right to how that
thing is distributed.

If you decide it's public domain, you decide that.

If you decide um it's fair use, you decide that.

If you decide it's, you know, per use commission for fair use, whatever that means, like
you get to decide the terms of that.

You are the artist.

Um and oftentimes artists are not allowed to they don't feel they have that choice.

I mean, how many times do you hear the horror stories of bands or record labels, you know.

signing a contract they don't understand and before they know it they've signed away the
rights to their entire catalogue.

yeah, plenty of artists have been basically screwed over by that.

Yeah.

That was an awkward pause just because I was uh I was adjusting things on my sound table
here.

It keeps playing in the background, but there's no volume to it and it was driving me
nuts.

We have a very premium work setup here in this podcast studio here.

Um very luxurious state of the art technology with dings and gadgets and graphs and little
timers and stuff.

And the machine in the back that goes bing.

Bing.

How expensive is that machine?

Did they ever say in that?

I think they call it expensive machine in the back that goes bing.

Yeah.

One of my favorite films of all time.

So once again, Japan.

Um I'm a little jealous that you just are ahead of the curve in many ways, uh, for my
country here in the United States.

Also, I you know, the UK isn't isn't doing so great in that regard either.

But uh again, kudos to you and uh wish you all the best.

And we we love a good win when it comes to artists' rights.

Was this the end of the podcast here?

We've talked about all the good news, so

Yes, the joke that never dies.

Correct.

When we talk about the good news, that is the end of the podcast.

You've been listening for seventeen minutes or so.

Um, yep, that's we're done.

That's it.

That's all people care about.

Just that one thing.

Yeah, and I I once I've heard the good news, then I just turn it off.

Damn.

Kidding.

Kidding.

She's not kidding.

Well, I suppose we have more things to talk about, don't we?

Well, I guess we should maybe talk about some other stuff.

Fair enough.

That's right.

As is customary here at the Zero Dot Podcast.

We don't just talk about the good stuff.

We talk about stuff that's not so great.

What we can possibly do about that.

And this week's a little bit different.

This week is a little more personal.

This one is uh some some not great news, but I I'm choosing to see uh the silver lining
out of it uh as it pertains to us here at the Zero Dot Podcast.

For our listeners, you might have noticed that we have taken a a summer little break here.

Where we are broadcasting every other week.

Um, fun news.

Our Patreon members are getting stuff every single week.

They're getting a super secret project that's might get launched in the August, uh,
September, October time frame.

Who knows?

Uh, but they're getting a sneak peek right now to what that super secret project is going
to be.

So if you want to check that out, more news later in the episode about how to join our
Patreon and get access to that.

But for everyone else, we've been launching bi-weekly for this summer season.

Um, and part of that has been due to

some tragedy that has befallen my life, specifically your host, Sam Kirk.

Um, on June 19th, my dearest mother, Elizabeth Bradley Kirk, passed away from this world
on to another.

Um, and yes, I am still here in the booth and I'm still here talking with you all, having
lovely conversations with all of you in the comments, all of you in the chat, um, our

lovely guest hosts, guest host, guest host uh elegantly uh in presence as well.

and I do so uh out of respect for my mother, out of uh a reverence for um what she uh
believed in, as well as, you know, I believe that the most defiant thing we can do, the

most rebellious thing we can do in life is to keep going on when the world tells us not
to.

my mother, Elizabeth Bradley Kirk, born nineteen forty eight, passing on the year twenty
twenty-six.

She passed away in the month of June.

And she gave birth two sons in June as well.

So June is a very um important month for us here at the Kirk family.

One of the things I'll always remember about my mother is that she always called the
shots.

She she dictated the rules of life that she lived by.

And it drove all of us um obedient servants insane because we were trying to follow
invisible rules of

What the world wanted from us.

And we thought, this is what the world wants us.

Be nice.

Be here.

Be here on time.

Do this.

Do that.

And she would do a very gentle middle finger to all that and play a fiddle to her own
music.

I sometimes, um, when I listen to music that reminds me of her, I think of like uh the
phrase a waltz for Betsy.

I feel like uh she was always dancing to a tune that was all her own.

And in the same way she did that.

She also called the shots regarding her own passing.

She decided she was um

Done with this particular version of life.

She had enough of it.

She was ready to go.

And she went away peacefully.

Um, and when I think about that and I think about mom, a lot of feelings come through.

Uh, it's a very emotional time for a lot of people in my family and myself as well.

What I think about most though is how to live this life in the most sustainable way
possible.

Um, because I hear it a lot in my leadership world, you know, grind set.

Optimization, growth, growth, growth, growth, growth.

And then I hear the other side of the the sen the fence where it's like, no, everything is
fixed.

You these are the skills that you have when you're born.

You must use your skills wisely and then you die at some point.

And I think both sides are a little bit wrong.

And I and I think about Simon Snake's discussion again about the the infinite game of
life.

Um I think about many other social scientists who've talked about, you know, finite and
infinite games and so forth.

And I think about sustainability and what we can do.

as human beings here to be more sustainable.

And when I think of sustainability, I actually no, not when I think of it.

When people often say the word sustainability words.

When people often say the word sustainability when it comes to life sciences and just
leadership and you know, a mental wealth and h self help and all that good stuff.

Someone from the woodwork often says that what you're actually saying when you say the
word sustainability is you're saying phoning it in.

You're saying go the easy route.

Just do the least amount of work possible until you die, and that's not acceptable.

And if there's one person in this room specifically who's taught me that that's not
necessarily true, but rather it's not even healthy, it's our lovely uh guest and co host

here today, Crystal Kirk.

So when I speak about sustainability, when I speak about the one side saying all you're
saying is phoning it in, and then the other side trying to argue the other side, what do

you think about that?

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well, I heartily disagree with that assessment.

Um, first of all, sustainability in my mind, when it comes to your day-to-day life at the
very least, is about making sure that the present version of you can continue into the

future version of you.

Um

present version of you can continue into the future version of you.

I need to know more about that.

Yeah.

So um I know personally speaking, I get blinders on where I will continue to move forward
regardless of anything because I have a task that I need to complete.

But you can't run at a hundred percent, a hundred and ten percent, hundred and twenty,
whatever, constantly.

You have to take those moments for yourself in the moment and recognize when you need to
slow down.

So that you can actually make it for the long haul.

There are so many instances right now of just absolute burnout.

Um, I think that um, and I won't speak to the pros and cons of like working remotely or vr
working in an office, but I feel like in my personal life, when I do work remotely from

home, I am um

I feel guilty.

So I am continuing to just power through certain projects at the expense of my own mental
health, where if I'm at an office, I'm getting stopped by people who want to chat with me.

I'm grabbing coffee, I'm getting snacks, I'm taking a little walk.

I don't feel as chained to my computer.

Um, at least not in the same way.

Hmm.

So you're you're dovetailing sustainability and also into the aspect of you know, working
from home.

You're at you're in the comfort of your own home.

You're not in another physical place that is designed for work necessarily.

Even if you have a work office, you're just not in that space.

And so the guilt comes in, the feeling like you're not doing enough.

Hmm.

How does that manifest?

How does that kind of look and feel for you?

well, I'm an anxiety monster, so it's always it's always just this thrum of gentle
anxiety, uh, you know.

And then

What did your shirt say that this one lady Heather thought was the greatest shirt of all

yeah, the other day when we were at the convention, it was anxiety, coffee, and
existential dread.

Yes.

You're saying it not very confidently.

It was coffee, anxiety, existential dread.

Yes.

Accurate.

Those things on your shirt.

And the lady at the the one person at the the convention, Heather, she said, very
vulnerable uh vulnerable, that she had not had coffee that day and she was very angry and

that she went to the convention expecting iced coffee and they did not have iced coffee.

And they offered her a lemonade and she says lemonade is not coffee.

Honestly, super relatable.

Heather is a real one.

Yeah, she is.

Um yeah, so I mean, working from home, you have all this anxiety.

You you feel like you're not doing enough.

When you're in the office, you're getting bothered a lot.

So you're you might be getting as much work done.

Probably less work done, honestly.

Maybe, maybe not.

and you don't have that feeling.

Yeah, because I'm available, I'm being seen, I'm being perceived.

You're being perceived.

Do you think also it's part of the threshold theory of like you step into a specific
threshold for a very specific task, you're doing that task, and then when you step out of

the threshold, you're no longer doing that task?

I think that that's also a big a big part of it.

'Cause there's a there's a working theory that like in the world of knowledge work, we're
really bad at measuring worth.

In in physical labor work, no, you you you do your quantity, you get your metrics done,
you've you've done enough labor.

you you clock out for the day, and how much ever you got done is what you got commission
off of, or or whatever.

You or even if you you didn't work enough commission, you're working off of hours in the
day.

You got to see the sweat on your brow and you got to see the sun, you know.

come in and then set and all that good stuff.

And knowledge work, that's it's really hard to quantify the worth of a worker who's doing
knowledge work because it's complex work.

And I I'm I'm forgetting the individual.

We'll have I'll have to figure out how to cite it later.

But basically the phenomenon is something like this: like we figured out that it's really
hard to quantify knowledge work.

But at the very least, if we create a space for you to exist in and we expect you to come
in generally at about the same time.

And leave generally at the same amount of time, give or take, seven, eight, nine, 10
hours, whatever that looks like.

Some people work 12, some people work 16 hours, crazy, but you know, whatever that metric
is.

There'd be some days where you got quote unquote nothing done.

You got nothing done.

You didn't accomplish anything.

You didn't move the needle.

You didn't get anything really done, but you walked away with the satisfaction knowing you
were working towards a complex problem and you made some kind of progress.

Yeah.

And you knew that.

You know, if Monday and Tuesday were worthless and then Wednesday suddenly you made a
breakthrough, you know that Monday and Tuesday were worth it to make it to the next day.

And once you get to a remote work model, this becomes incredibly hard to track now because
you're not in a physical space.

So you don't have the satisfaction of going to a specific space to do a thing, then
leaving that specific space out of that thing.

You're working on a

complex problem and your work your supervisors can't see you working on that complex
problem because it's kind of in the brain.

So they have to track every little thing you do and it feels like micromanaging.

And then you get this sense that you're describing, this feeling of like I'm not doing
enough.

That's not fun.

There's days where I know that I did, I physically know that I've done a lot of work.

But there's not really that much to show for it because the work that I've done is very
like mental.

It's very like preparing for the next thing that I have to do that I might not get done
till next week because it's a large project.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That has to be it's gonna be really aggravating.

Mm.

And yet you find ways to sustain yourself.

Uh yeah, using the word.

Use a word.

by taking those days where you're not doing as much to sort of reset yourself, reorganize,
go back to basics, do the one ones of things, so that you're prepared and ready for those

times that you do have to to hustle, to put out fires, to jump from thing to thing.

How do you do

It's hard.

It's hard to first be aware enough to to stop yourself.

Um

But it's something that we practice, you know.

Um, awareness is the first step.

It really is.

Like taking the moment to recognize the small signs that you're about to break.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kind of have to

This is not a healthy thing to say.

And I wish our friend John was here to tell me if this is right or not.

But I kind of feel like everyone needs to have a one not breakdown moment, but a moment of
like truly reaching what failure looks and feels like.

So that way they are awareness of, okay, that's the line.

And and some people develop like a a PTSD protection about that, like never get close to
it.

But like if you can develop an awareness, like, okay, what got me to that line, what made
me cross that line?

What are the steps I can do to make sure I never break that line?

Um, and then I come in, the social scientist leadership guy, and I go, okay, that's cool.

How can we make sure we don't even get anywhere close to that line?

Like, don't even push next to it.

Don't even like kiss your lips to it.

Get so far away from that line that you never even come close to that and develop systems
around that.

Yet at the same time, when you start having conversations of that and I start talking
about sustainability, people go, well, you're not.

You're pushing the needle hard enough.

You're not, we're not meeting our goals enough.

And then some project manager comes in and says, Hey, we have specific goals we have for
this quarter, and this is gonna drive down all the goals that I've made.

And all it really is is someone else made promises to someone else that I have nothing to
do with.

But yet, because they made those promises, everyone else is getting screwed over because
of it.

And as I think about sustainability, I think about expectations.

I think about the expectations that are on all of us, that are on me, that are on you,
that are on

Everyone from family, from friends to work life and otherwise.

And I think about the people who do a really good job of navigating that in the sense that
they just don't seem to care what expectations people have on them.

Um in some ways they're sociopaths because you have to care a little bit about what the
outside world thinks about you, just a little bit.

Because if you really didn't care what people thought, that's a very dangerous cocktail.

That's a that's that's something else.

Um, but balancing that of caring just a little bit what people think, but also

being free to push off and disappoint people, knowing that what you're doing is good
enough.

Um, without sounding like an asshole, because it's very easy to sound like an asshole,
right?

If you're if you're that guy who says no and rejects people's expectations of them, it's
it's I don't think that's a position you've ever been able to find yourself like

comfortably in.

No no, certainly not.

And but there is a sense of balance there.

So like you're protecting yourself while still maintaining those expectations that some
whether somebody else is setting them for you or you're setting them for yourself.

Um it's all about always.

Everything's about balance.

Balance, moderation, in moderation.

What?

Small plug for a content creator we like.

Ian, also known as uh no Liam, sorry, Liam, the the Plant Slant.

He has a a podcast called Inmoderation.

we love the Plant Slant.

he's a great Instagrammer, YouTuber, uh TikToker, I suppose, um debunking horrible,
horrible nutritional myths that people have.

That are all goons, in my opinion.

So go check that individual out.

We love that individual.

And it when you do.

Make sure to look for the bean.

Beans.

The bean.

Cause he's sponsored by Big Bean.

I think he wants to be sponsored.

Oh he did?

Oh good for Leah.

uh

a not the big bean, but like a local beanery.

And they give him a check for five dollars.

And he says, Look, I want you to know I'm doing this not for the money, cause this
cardboard check costs more than the actual money the check is worth.

I just wanna say that I'm sponsored by Big Bean.

Um

cute.

Are we talking?

Sustainability.

Yeah.

And you had a great comment and I dovetailed into Oh, in moderation.

Everything comes back to in moderation, a balance.

Problem is though, when I say balance and you say balance, that makes a certain person
really frustrated.

Like, I don't know what that means.

It's hard.

It's cause it's um ambiguous.

Cause it's ambiguous.

What is balance because it's different for everybody.

So people with anxiety like myself, um, we we don't like living in the ambiguity of what
is.

I need a checklist.

I need somebody to tell me that I need to take a 30 minute walk and ten thousand steps and
eat ninety grams of protein and

twenty five grams of fiber and then all my problems will be solved.

Mm.

Meanwhile, for another person, if you give them a checklist, they get anxiety from the
checklist and they're like, Get the checklist away from me.

'Cause we're all very different people.

All very different.

So, what are the steps we can find out more about ourselves knowing this?

And I think I've talked about this before, knowing the fact that human beings are
notoriously bad at knowing themselves.

And like biologically, um, it's a common survey that goes out, but basically it's like
they ask a hundred people hey, how many of you raise your hand, believe you're self aware?

And 80 of them raise their hands, like say 80 to 85% of people say, Yeah, I think I'm
pretty self aware.

Okay, dismiss the 20 people that didn't sh raise their hands.

Okay, you self-aware people, now take this self-awareness assessment to see how self-aware
you are.

And only like eleven percent of the people who raise their hand are actually self-aware of
any kind.

Mm-hmm.

So it's a common assessment that we think we're self-aware, but we actually aren't.

So what do we do?

How do we how do we get that?

Do you think those twenty so people that they dismissed are actually more self aware
because they didn't think they were stup Uno reverse.

It it might be.

Mm-hmm.

It might be.

because this is related to the topic at hand about, you know, the loss of my mother.

a very nice hospice nurse asked me how I'm doing and how I think I'm gonna handle it when
my mother passes.

And I actually I said, I'm okay, but also I don't know that I can actually answer your
question because it hasn't happened yet.

It's I I don't know what that feeling is going to be like.

I

I feel prepared for it, but you never are.

Like I you know, if you take everything as is, as it comes to you, I don't think you can
truly ever know how you're gonna react and how you're gonna feel about things.

And so you're I think those twenty people, there's a there's a chance those twenty people
that left could have been more self aware than we gave them credit for.

Who knows?

How are you feeling now?

How am I feeling now?

The hospice nurse wanted to know how you would feel.

How are you feeling now?

All of the emotions and all of the emotions is like a waveform that keeps cascading and
changing.

And there's grief and there's sadness and there's love.

There's also anger and resentment and shame and guilt.

And every every little bit of time that goes by, not just per day, like per hour, it keeps
falling and changing.

What is taking over what?

But they're all happening all at the same time.

But I keep

reminding myself of the gratitude that I have for the life that I was able to live thanks
to my lovely mother.

Cause she she is my biological mother.

She gave birth to me.

I would not exist without her.

You would not have a lovely husband.

Hopefully I'm a lovely husband without her.

Uh and and I you focus on gravit gratitude and the missing her in the sadness to try to
cancel out the other stuff.

Cause it's a it's a complex thing, you know, Zero Dot members don't know this, but

You know, uh my upbringing was a little complex.

My relationship with my mother is little bit complex.

So there's a lot of things in that in that stew, as we say.

That was very self aware of you.

What also a complex relationship with your parent.

What?

Who would have thought?

have mommy or daddy issues.

That should be the plot of the next movie.

that's very reductive.

We all have parental issues.

How do we find out more about ourselves?

I'm a big enemy of the self-help industry.

Um, I'm a staunch enemy of that.

Knowing that my work is very Venn diagram close next to it.

Because the self-help industry basically says, what you're doing is not enough.

Read this book, take this course, focus on this one guru.

They'll teach you all you need to know.

Here's the five steps, here's the ten steps, here's all you gotta do, follow this
framework.

And it's helpful until it's not helpful.

And then there's no other recourse.

And so one of two things happens.

You bury the hole even harder, you double down, you buy the second course, the third
force, the fifth course, you buy the tenth book from the same person.

You're not understanding the material enough.

It's your fault.

Or you go, you know what?

You're the wrong guru.

Let me find a different guru.

And it goes around and around and around and around.

And they're all just jerking each other off, these self-help guys.

Um, and plus the the word self-help is ri ridiculous.

If it's self-help, you shouldn't need anything.

You shouldn't need to read a book.

You shouldn't need to rely on anything.

It's self-help.

Yet that's the source that a lot people go to to try to quote unquote find themselves.

So what I often say to people is it's not about it's the opposite of that.

It's not about you hunkering down by yourself.

It's developing a network of colleagues, friends, people that you trust who have hindsight
behind you, they can look behind you and they can also look out for your blind spots.

Like, hey Sam, you're doing that thing again.

Oh, sorry, my bad.

Like if I if I'm doing something that you know to look out for it or

They they take care of me when I'm falling apart and they they they pick up the pieces for
me.

You know, that's that's self awareness in some capacity.

I d I often say self awareness is helpful up into a limit.

'Cause at a certain point it's it's you're not gonna get any kind of it's a diminished
return.

You're not gonna get much out of that output.

Hmm.

Going to the self help books, I would say that um I've read a a handful to varying degrees
of, you know, helpfulness.

Mm.

Not very helpful.

But, you know very helpful.

Not very helpful.

But, you know, I, you know, girl wash your face was really big when I was coming up in
college and um the subtle art of not giving a fuck and

uh four hour work week and some of them are

Some of them are are kind of a scam where they're just kind of being like, Hey, guess what
I did?

You could totally do what I did and and I'll tell you how.

And then it's just not not relatable in any sense.

Like it just doesn't make sense for your life.

Um, and then there's some where it'll teach you to think about something in a slightly
different way, especially if that person's a motivational writer.

Um, there's there's things I'm I wouldn't say that I've ever read

a self help book that has completely changed my perspective on anything.

But there's always times when you're talking to somebody and you just see that light bulb
moment.

You're like, Oh, I never thought about it like that.

And I think that I think that is helpful for people.

Um, there's a bell curve of people that it would be helpful for and not helpful for.

Here's a question for you.

Do you think there is more self help information as an information we could use to help
improve ourselves in fiction than there is in nonfiction?

I would say it depends.

The answer is it depends.

Because it depends on what you're looking for.

In fiction, there's a lot of character work that I think is really, really helpful.

I think I've learned a lot from different characters and their motivations and their
experiences, more than I've learned from definitely a self-help book, but um

But then again, I've read a lot of Mary Roach who just takes one subject and dives right
into it.

And I find a lot of my annoying little facts that I sometimes just kind of like
neurodivergently spit out in the middle of a conversation.

to be, you know, also fun and helpful at parties.

Yeah, I mean pop culture references are great.

We love that bathhouse, right?

I I think I I've often said and I I still pretty much agree with myself on this one.

I think there is more self-help to be had in the fiction and the art that we consume than
the actual social sciences no, sorry, the actual self-help stuff that we might consume.

Right.

Social sciences I'm a big fan of because it's actually scientists on the ground doing
research, doing trials.

Asking, you know, doing double blind tests of some kind and getting large swaths of data
and saying, Here's the observations we have from that.

And that can either reinforce our understanding of how the brain works or not.

I'm a big fan of that.

Um, I think the stories that we we hear and read and watch do a better job informing us of
ourselves than some of the self help stuff.

I know uh I know you're not the biggest fan of this, but I mean, with Catcher in the Rye
by JD Salinger, Holden Caulfield, I saw quite a bit of myself in that book when I was

reading it in like God, how old was I?

Eleven maybe.

Holden Caulfield's like sixteen or eighteen in that book.

And I was eleven and I saw a bit of myself in that, and then I saw at the end how where
Holden Caulfield just kind of where his journey kind of ends.

Or I guess you see the journey end of the journey, the beginning of the book, and then you
kind of see how we got to that end of that journey at the end.

And I'm like, I I gotta change some things.

Um I I would say that's pretty uh causal to all of my relationship with all the novels and
literature that I've read where I see a little bit of myself in that.

for those that well, no one can see this because we're not recording this.

We have a a third guest here by the name of Doom, Doomithi Binks, our cat.

and he is he is jumping all over the studio today.

demanding attention.

Demanding attention.

He just hung out on his cat stool that we have for him.

And then he didn't like that.

So then he he jumped on top of uh Crystal's chair and then didn't like that.

And now he's he's left the room.

He might come back in a little bit later.

But yeah, I I think literature, I think art, uh creative stuff it does a better job.

A story, something that you can relate to is super powerful.

Um, I would say that it's not that I didn't enjoy Catcher in the Rye, it just didn't
appeal to me as a non-boy, perhaps, question mark, with uh, I don't know, social problems,

I will say.

What what do you think Holden Caulfield's big problem is?

Holden's Caulfield's problem in the most simplest way, in the way that would make sense on
a podcast that we're recording right now, without talking about the book at a larger

facet.

He thinks so much before he does something, and he thinks his thinks meet his thoughts
mean something.

he's got thoughts about everything.

I mean, that's the beauty of that book for me is it you're seeing his internal monologue
constantly.

Like it just doesn't stop.

It's it's just a constant internal monologue.

Can I ask you a question?

Yeah, sure.

Do you remember the sister's name?

I remember the sister's name and I think that's why I didn't like Holden Caulfield.

Okay, what's the sister?

Phoebe.

Yeah.

I remember the sister because she was more important to me in the book than Holden.

Not that she had much screen time.

She didn't.

She's she appeared a little bit.

Y she was kind of the impetus for his change, to be honest, in my humble opinion.

She's

Yeah.

Yes, yes, the horses, the golden ring.

Yeah, we can get all into the literature stuff some other time.

For those that are listening, she just uh my wife just waved at me.

Here's the funny thing.

I know she would love to get into this stuff, but she's like, No, no, no, no, no.

Not for this podcast.

We'll talk about it later.

We'll save that for another time.

Yeah, I I I mean we when when we read and when we consume stuff, we pay attention to what
resonates and speaks with us in all different kinds of ways.

Um

Does that help sustain you?

Consuming art?

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

I figured that was a yes.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

As someone who has uh maybe at one percent of artistry inside of himself and does a little
bit of arty arty things in the background, I know that when I am in that space and making

that thing, I'm making it to get something out of me that's a truth that I understand
about the universe, whether it's true or not, but it's how I believe the universe is, and

I want when I'm finally done with it, I want someone else to have it as well.

Mm-hmm.

So I think through metaphor, through storytelling.

art, music.

I think we can understand more about ourselves than we can these books that try to sell
you something.

That's the other thing.

D whenever they're trying to sell you something, go fuck off.

That's that's my main thing.

Don't fuck off.

so we have to be aware of ourselves.

We have to find things that find us joy or bring us joy or or a deeper understanding.

Mm-hmm.

These are things that help sustain us.

What else you got?

I mean when we talk about what brings us joy.

When interacting with other human beings, I and like the smartest people on the planet
think this too.

So I don't think I'm alone here.

We get a whiff.

I can tell if you love what you're doing or if you're just going through the motions.

Yes.

We can just tell.

We can smell it.

We can we can detect it.

There's something, the passions in there.

It's why I hear this all the time.

People will say, you know what?

I watch random shit on YouTube.

Like someone's a wood maker.

I have no interest in wood making of any kind, but this one guy on YouTube, he's like so
passionate about it, he's nerdy about it.

I love that shit.

I put that on the background, or I'm watching it before I go to sleep, or like I just I I
binge watch it because it's fun for me.

People love seeing passion in other people.

And in that way, I encourage every person to be passionate about whatever the fuck they're
passionate about and do the things they're passionate about without regard of whether

people will like it or not.

Cause who gives a fuck?

Passion in and of itself is um a very attractive quality in somebody.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

And I think a lot of human beings are scared to do that stuff.

They've been told not to do it for whatever reason.

Fit in line, do the thing.

Well, you can't you can't be too into something, then you wouldn't be a cool person.

And you ultimately have to be cool.

Cool.

If if the internet is teaching us anything, coolness doesn't fucking matter.

What matters is

You you're doing your thing, someone sees you, they don't think you're cool enough, they
they put a label on you.

And then what they're actually doing is gatekeeping you.

Because the truth is, what that person should do is, hey, this isn't for me, but maybe
it's for someone else.

Cause what we're seeing in the internet is all these I'm gonna use the word weird in scare
quotes here.

Weird people doing whatever they're passionate about.

And it turns out if you give it the global audience of the goddamn fucking world.

Not only do people find them, people are attracted to them, the right kind of people, and
they become incredibly successful and they find a career and

There's no such thing as coolness.

There's just simply it's not for you.

But we we try to find this thing called normalcy, whatever normalcy means.

Dead silent.

What is normal?

I I I don't know.

Mm-hmm.

No.

I mean that's I'll I'll I'll say I I've I've dabbled in trying a little too hard and being
normal earlier on.

I'm a lot better at that than I was twenty years ago.

Does normal just translate to average or?

I mean that's a very common thing to say.

It's just average.

It's just middle of the road.

I was talking to my father, not to it not to uh admonish him at all, but he was saying
that one of his goals in life, based on his upbringing and his his value systems was to be

as invisible as possible.

Do the work, be good at it, and be invisible.

And I think I took from that too much earlier on in my personal and professional life.

And it hurt me and I had to learn that's not for me.

Um, that's not my way of doing things.

And uh it felt like a silencing of who I am as a person.

Again, everyone's different, right?

But I you know is normal average?

I don't know.

It's there's a very good case to be made for that.

Yeah.

I I relate to sort of being not necessarily invisible, but like pulling the strings in the
background being the um the knowledge base person.

Yeah.

Um to sort of move needles around.

But but I'm the one kind of giving the direction.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I I respect the hell out of that.

I thought I was that person.

And what ended up happening was I was in a couple of situations where no one else ever all
of us wanted to be that person that you're describing, but then there was no one else

doing the thing.

And we're all waiting for that person to go fucking do the thing.

It's a lot harder to harder to be the visible person.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

I think at some point I felt a calling, like a I I gotta fucking do the thing then because
then I wanna help the team, cause then the team can start working dynamically.

And then that happened more than once, a couple of times, over and over again.

And I'm like, wait, maybe maybe this is my function.

Cause it it wasn't painful for me to be the person doing the thing.

It didn't hurt.

And then I became blind to the fact that other people really don't want to be the ones
doing the thing and it hurts them a lot more than it hurts me.

I don't know if what I'm saying is making any sense or not.

It it makes sense.

It's uh like I said, it's it's hard to be the one that's visible.

Um, it's the person who's gotta take the accountability for things if they go wrong.

It is um it's definitely a skill.

Um and I think that you embody that very well, but you also have the skills of the behind
the scenes person.

So it's kind of like a double whammy of like you understand the back end and now you're
doing the front.

That's interesting.

Yeah.

The Zero Dot Podcast is made possible Patreon Member Shout to our lovely patrons, David
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Thank you so much to our Patreon supporters for making this show possible.

Yeah.

I was talking to a colleague of mine, Ross Kobalak, who's a a Disney actor, uh a working
actor.

And we were we were talking about this dynamic of like we we don't have that much of a
problem being made a fool of.

Like I will go I'll be the guy you're laughing at.

It's okay.

That's all it is.

You're just laughing at me and that's fine.

And we were talking about people we knew.

professionally that or the opposite, like absolutely not.

Do not laugh at me.

Don't don't put me in the spotlight.

Don't don't be in don't be don't make me be the person doing the thing.

And Ross and I kind of shared solidarity and like learning like we have a blind spot
because we literally don't feel the pain, anxiety, frustration that they might be feeling

in that moment.

And that's totally fine.

Like

Meanwhile, uh I appreciate the compliment about being able to work behind the scenes.

You know, I think I am pretty good at flexing between the two.

But I do feel in my in my vulnerable moments, that no one else is listening to on this
lovely podcast being broadcast across Spotify and everyone's our secret, guys.

I think in the

real deep divy moments where like real deep, deep, deep, deep, deep knowledge work is
required and like real intelligence is required and I feel like I'm going over my head on

that.

I feel like an absolute idiot and I'm ashamed.

I feel stupid.

I feel like I should be smarter and I'm not.

So sometimes I think my ability to get in front of the spotlight, the camera, whatever, is
really just a way of me to obfuscate that.

It's like I I'm not as smart as the other guy, but I can do this at least.

And maybe that's why we're a good pair because I'm the complete opposite.

Okay.

The um the catching me out in a in a moment kind of a thing.

Oh, don't like that.

We don't like that.

We got a lot of trauma around that.

But the deep dive knowledge, I feel like I know enough that once I get to that point where
I I've hit my thing, I say, okay, this I've I have hit my my limit of knowledge, but

I know where to go to get more information on this or I know how to handle that even if
it's not I don't know, even if it's not easy.

Yeah.

What's interesting though is that when you have been called out in moments that I've seen
it anyway, you might be having this moment of like I hate this, like this is really giving

me a lot of pain, but I've seen you power through it.

I mask very well.

In the same way I've been able to either mask or the sudden anger that I'm not smart
enough at this thing.

I just no, let me just dive a little bit deeper and I just get through it.

So I think it's just a a mechanism of just coping through it.

Which none of this is sustainable.

Like just forcing yourself to have to break through this uncomfortability aspect, I don't
think is sustainable.

It's not.

We have to go to therapy and work through all of our traumas.

Honey, we can't afford therapy.

We have a podcast.

that's very funny.

That's a joke.

It's a funny joke, but it's a good joke.

It's a depressing joke because therapy is expensive.

Yeah, it is.

Um, honestly, uh I was talking to someone who will remain nameless, but they will know who
they are when they listen to this podcast, who was saying that when you think about it, uh

alcohol is actually a really good medication for if you can't afford therapy because it
you know, it's cheap and it's available and uh if you learn how to medicate real well

enough with it, you can operate well within life.

And I agree with about

ten percent of that sentiment and then the other ninety percent I do not.

Uh

You agree with that alcohol can be cheap?

It can be cheap and it can feel like if you get the right ratio right, you've got it you
gotta figure it out.

You can feel you feel like it is.

Yes.

But you actually don't

Feels helpful.

Yeah.

It feels helpful if you alcohol release reduces your inhibition.

So if you are having trouble getting through that initial wall, sure, getting yourself a
little tipsy so that you can hear yourself say the words that you need to hear.

Okay, I'm with you on that one.

And you know, we we know people that when you first meet 'em, they're quiet, they don't
say a damn thing, but then like four or five drinks in, they don't become like drunk.

They just kind of open up more.

That's all that happens.

And so yeah, I mean, it can do that for a lot of different people.

I mean, there was a time in our early professional lives when I was working morning, day
and night and then I was going to happy hour almost every night or

having a drink every night and it like my one way of coping with that life that Yeah.

And like you have I that was when I had my worst anxiety that during that period.

And I the alcohol just sh helped shut some of that down.

Medication is also good if you could.

Medication, yes.

Um, so we the thing is therapy should be cheaper.

Yes.

therapy should be controversial.

Uh government or state partially funded of some kind.

I know that sounds crazy.

Okay.

I w we've been talking a lot about hot takes.

This is a little this is I swear it's gonna come back around.

We've been talking a lot about hot takes.

Uhhuh.

This is my new hot take.

New hot take.

Yeah.

Everybody should be required to do one year of a customer service job upon graduating high
school.

And they should also be required to be in therapy.

New hot take from me.

So I I you and I have the same hot take.

Mine's a little bit different.

Two years of customer service.

Want two.

I think in one year it's enough to learn how hard the job is.

But I think that's the second year you figure out how to be good at it.

Because I'll be honest, first year I sucked and I hated it.

I'm like, ah.

But then I thought there's no other way I can get out of this.

So I gotta figure out how to get good at it.

And then it was that second that the beginning the from one year one to two.

That's when I started getting figuring out the skill.

The emotional intelligence, we'll call it.

Okay.

But I agree with you.

Sorry.

Yes, and I agree with you.

And uh yeah, everyone should be in therapy.

Every single person.

Therapy's great.

We love therapy here on the Zero Dot Podcast.

Big fans of it.

Absolutely.

Did we figure out how to become sustainable yet?

Not yet.

Let's keep going.

So sustainable.

I think it's about your networks and your friends who keep you honest.

I think it's about chasing what you love, but knowing that your love is not infinite.

Some people will think I'll just keep doing what I love forever.

I'm like, no, you can't do it forever.

You have to have some pain with some joy.

Otherwise you don't really understand the joy.

I'm a big fan of always leaving the tank a little bit you haven't expelled the tank every
day.

Like leave the workshop, the workstation, leave whatever your passion is when you still
have energy for the next day.

So that way every single time you're ready to go.

I'm very um into the spoons theory.

So if you only have like ten spoons for the day, you wanna make sure you have a spoon or
two left at the end of the day.

So explain to me the spoons theory because I think I know the spoons theory.

I think I do.

I've used spoons a lot in my ver verbiage.

Like I don't have enough spoons for that right now.

I I'll I'll it this is similar to a a very popular relationship TikTok that I watched.

I think it's gonna help you explain it a little bit or exp help me explain it to you a
little bit better.

Um so the um husband and the wife in this TikTok, they come to each other at the end of
their day and they both say a number.

And um, you know, she'll say five and he'll say two.

And they can determine based on how high or low their number is together, like

how much effort they have for the rest of the day, if it's like cleaning the house or
who's cooking dinner or like if this is just a we're gonna order a pizza and watch TV.

Um, and I think that that translates well to the spoons theory of like, I have only so
many things of effort that I can expend today.

And being really self aware helps you figure out, you know, how many spoons you might have
for the day and when you've reached your limit.

Okay.

Does that help?

It does.

So here's where I struggle.

The way my energy works.

Like shortly after waking up, maybe forty five minutes in, my first cup of coffee.

my I feel that my energy levels like at max all day until it's not at some determinate
amount of time.

So I myself knowing talk about knowing yourself.

I know about myself that like I've done this 40 years now.

That I know that I feel like I'm I'm doing and I got a ton of spoons, using your analogy.

But I can't rely on that because how I'm feeling and how I think my energy output is does
not commensurate to how much energy I actually have.

think that that is really common.

Um, and that comes back to our thing of self-awareness of you need to sit and examine that
for yourself and notice those cues that are you burning spoons or using up your spoons.

Um, I think that that's a really difficult thing to do, especially if you are of like a
very goal oriented person and you're like, I'm getting all my tasks done and I'm I'm

getting that little dopamine hit of I've completed a thing.

And yes, sometimes you'll sit there and you'll be like, I use too many of my spoons.

I don't even have I I'm negative spoons right now.

Um, it's not like I've never had that feeling.

But you need to sort of figure out when that is like what triggers are happening for you
to recognize when when that is.

Yeah.

I mean one of the things I rely on is physicalness.

So like

Yes, you are you need to stand and walk around a lot.

Yeah, so if I'm if I'm s if I if I am sitting for too long, it's a big drain.

If if I'm standing for too long, it's a drain.

I need the mix of the two.

I need to be moving, standing, moving.

Keep myself kind of shifting between positions a lot.

Um I wouldn't call myself fidgety.

Fidgety at all, but what I'm describing like you're

you're more restless than fidgety.

Yeah.

If that makes any sense.

It's not really like um an aggravated thing.

Um, it's more like a

An animation.

Like when your brain is going, you also need to be like pacing or something sometime.

Mm-hmm.

Like I went to see this play and we had an intermission.

I stand up every time whenever there's any kind of break, stand up, stretch, I walk, I I
gotta get that out.

'Cause if not, I'll be I'll be feeling some kind of way.

Um, but there's a physical aspect being aware of that.

Mm-hmm.

There there there's a lot of little things I pay attention to to guess at how much energy
I have.

And it's a guess, I'm doing the best I can.

That's all we ask is that you do the best you can.

But it really feels like by the time I wake up, forty-five minutes in, my energy's at max
and then it stays at max all day until it suddenly isn't max and just down.

Now that might be what's interesting about that is that we've talked about this.

I'm very good at sleeping.

I'm a very good sleeper.

I don't very jealous sleeping.

Um

We could talk about that all day.

But that that might be a correlation there with in the sense that I feel that constancy
with my body and my energy up until I suddenly don't.

And it's evening, I gotta go done.

I'll say for me, I um I can do small tasks from like say like I start work at nine.

I really only get like an hour or two of of like actual work done.

A lot of my morning is like a lot of setup, a lot of um catching up with people, making
sure that we're all on the same page on things.

Uh but when I get to like 130 to like 330, my output is crazy.

Like I'm getting stuff done.

I'm I'm sending emails, I'm bouncing from thing to thing.

So I have this like really amazing like a hundred and twenty percent that I do from like
one thirty to like three thirty or four.

Interesting.

And if you I I and that can last for a long time.

You'll you'll call me sometimes and it'll be like six o'clock and it'll be like, Ooh,
sorry, I didn't even realize what time it was.

'cause I was really working on this one project and you never know how long that spike's
gonna be.

But I've really just I've I've really honed myself into a lot of prep work in the morning
and then a lot of like focus work in the afternoon.

The time in which I feel that

That sense of like I could work on this forever and just time gets lost.

It's earlier.

It's like

Mm.

Assuming let's say I'm up at seven in the morning, I'm logging off on the work at eight.

The real work doesn't start till ten.

Like 10 30 to like eleven thirty or twelve.

Maybe twelve thirty max.

Once I hit one o'clock, I'm already thinking dinner.

I'm thinking how I'm gonna get ready for the the end of my day.

I'm gonna think about what I can get done before the next day.

Like I'm already sunsetting my day by the time I hit like one o'clock.

That's something to think about because um

Because I I notice that my brain works fastest in the earlier parts of the day.

That's that's the difference.

So if my energy is constant all the time, I notice that my brain acuity is faster.

I can get a lot of little things get done really quickly in the morning.

Or close to middle of the morning.

I get complex things done really well.

The back half, it's gonna take me three times as long.

Well, you have to kind of like recognize that and make sure those complex things are
happening in that couple hour stretch that you have there and all of your like very, you

know, menial tasks, your stuff that's a little more manual, um, is happening in the back
half of your day, the the sort of like check checklist part of your day.

Yeah, I try.

The problem with my job is I don't have the luxury of always choosing that.

I try.

Um that and that's hard.

Sometimes your job's not gonna work for you.

I'm very fortunate that I can kind of like structure my day as needed.

Yeah.

And then there's the days I wake up at four thirty.

Which are common when I'm when I'm traveling or doing a gig.

And then what happens there is I can keep the energy output constant all day.

But by that five o'clock, I'm done.

Yeah.

Well, I think that's a lot of um you have an audience in those cases.

'Cause you're doing you're like running a class and um I think you thrive a little bit on
on a little well little dash of performance.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

And and but I do think that you are ultimately an introvert and that takes a lot of energy
from you.

Yeah.

Uhhuh.

so you need to rest your social battery and your social battery is very closely related to
your

Just general energy battery.

Yeah.

Um, and humans are very circadian, you know, like we we do cycles, everything's a cycle.

Yeah, I think I'm an introvert, you think I'm an introvert.

Disc doesn't think I'm an extrovert and intro Disc is wrong.

My dad thinks I'm an extrovert.

Um and I keep telling him, no, not.

You're a little performative, but you're definitely not an extrovert.

I mean, I've said before, like the whole introvert extrovert thing is a flawed premise,
but like assuming that we're gonna keep that about as it is.

And no one's fifty fifty.

It's more like I enjoy extroversion.

I really enjoy it, but that's not where I get my energy.

Mm-hmm.

I get my energy from being in my quiet moments of just recharging.

It's a psychological concept that um humans like to be put into boxes.

So like Meyer's brain, the Ngram, like the whatever whatever little test, a buzzfeed quiz
that tells you what type of cookie you are.

Humans love that.

All right.

I gotta give you my hot take.

You just talking about sustainability and you just said boxes, right?

In my world, we're called leadership consultants, coach executive coaches.

Um it's very common for many of us to be addicted to these things, these these systems,
this system and that system, and this this puts you in different boxes, whatever.

And there's only a few that I like.

Um

But the people that are like addicted to them, I'm like, this is part of the problem.

Yeah.

You're addicted to a classification of yourself as if it gives you a deeper understanding
of yourself.

And all it does is validate that all it does is validate that the social sciences, if they
exist at all, has seen a version of you that's like you so you don't feel as alone.

That's all it really does tell you, right?

Because if like my disclassification is I I forget the letters, but I think it was
protagonist was the label it gave me.

Here, let me I think it's Myers Briggs, sorry, that was Ian Ian T J.

E N T J.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Awkwardly typing it.

Also known as a commander, whatever.

Um

And all that says is that, you know.

No, you're an INTJ.

Well, Myers Briggs thinks I'm ENTJ.

That's whenever I take the test, that's what they say.

All that says is uh the sixteen answers you could get, there's there's people that get
that.

And I'm not alone.

Um, and that my gosh, when I take a a survey, an inventory personality test, and it gives
me a kicked back response.

It's that's predated, pre-automated, and it's explaining all these things that I know
about myself.

my gosh, someone has seen behaviors like me.

Wait, are we not significant?

uh I retcon my retcon.

ret gun, you're ret gun.

I am significant, says the fleck of dust.

And like

I'm a big believer in focusing on the individuality.

You know, if it gives you solace, focusing on where you are common with other people.

Cause, you know, it feels good to know some to have known something about yourself that
was so

that you thought was so distinct about yourself and know that it's not that distinct.

A lot of people struggle with it.

It feels good, but I does it really help you?

I don't know.

mean, I think people find a lot of um solace in that, like um, you know, Aquarius for
life.

with my cancer husband.

Um I've

You do, yeah.

I d I'm not really a big fan of that stuff.

You are.

I mean, you don't live your life by it.

You don't sign it in blood or anything, but you know, sometimes it's helpful to to see
that and and understand a certain part of yourself that you wouldn't have really thought

about.

Um, of course those things are written in a way that it's very like, my gosh, people who
are Aquarius are great leaders.

Yes, I'm a great leader, I know.

So my experience, not present company withstanding.

When I run into someone who's really into that stuff, we're talking of course of
astrology.

And the discussion of what sign you might be are, immediately the person I talked to was
like, my gosh, you are such a cancer.

my gosh.

I knew at the moment I met you, you were giving off such cancer vibes.

I'm like, what?

Ha ha.

Because then what that does is it makes everyone into twelve different categories of
whatever based on whatever nonsense you were born.

And I'm sorry, but you are much more than an Aquarius, my dear.

I don't know, Aquarius is uh by far the best sign.

Sure.

Yeah, they're all the best.

Insert blank is the best sign.

How about that?

How about that?

Let's ask our zero dot members.

Which astrology sign do you think is the best?

Which I will tell you that if you don't answer cancer, I'll be upset.

No, because the real answer is Aquarius.

Must choose make Sam Kirk happy, the host.

No, you know you guys know what to do.

Get in the comments.

Get in the comments.

Get in the comments.

Uh

But yeah, boxes, I mean

I I drives me nuts.

It drives me nuts that we crave that stuff.

And I I know that it can be helpful it's helpful until it isn't.

Yes, it's helpful until it is not.

I know that I in my in this part of my life, the back end of my life, I'm thinking, get me
out of these boxes.

Just get me out.

I think when I was young I really wanted to know what box I s I was in, give me a sense
just give myself a sense of place and purpose.

Now I'm like, screw that man.

You're in a cardboard box like Snake.

What's in the box?

What's in a box?

What's in the box?

Uh God, what's his name?

my god, my brain is dying.

MGS three.

Hold on.

I'm so disappointed in you right now.

ah

my brain has been SIGIN.

You gotta call SIGINT when you get the cardboard box in MGS three and Snake does a
fantastic monologue about how great the cardboard box is.

Fantastic.

I didn't know that.

Oh y I don't think so.

If I was, I was not in this world.

Mm.

Okay.

All right.

So this this is a this is a uh

Are you gonna do the dramatic reading for us?

Okay.

I'm ready.

we just saw the wonderful David Hayter, and I feel awful doing his voice, but I will do my
best.

so so Sigant says, uh, Snake, what are you doing?

And so what happens is the snake is calling Sigant from inside of a cardboard box.

So you call him, you're in the card box, you call him.

Sig Sigant says, uh, Snake, what are you doing?

Snake says, I'm in a box.

Cardboard box.

Why are you?

I don't know.

I was just looking at it, and suddenly I got this irresistible urge to get inside.

No, not an urge.

More than that.

It was my destiny to be in here.

In the box.

Destiny?

Yeah.

And then when I put it on, I suddenly got this feeling of inner peace.

I can't put it into words.

I feel safe.

Like this is where I was meant to be.

Like I'd found the key to true happiness.

Does that make any sense?

Not even a little.

You should come inside the box.

You'll know what I mean.

Man, I don't want to know what you meant.

Between you and paramedic, is everyone but me this hooked up with the Major Strange?

Yeah, well anyway, I suppose even that dumbass box might make a decent disguise if you
wear it inside a building or something.

That was a lovely um snake impression, first of all.

That was lovely.

Um also he figured out how to be sustainable in MGS3 and get inside a box.

Yes.

Get inside the bo

Yeah.

Box is the uh we're getting to uh Patreon section territory.

But yes, the box in the video game Metal Gear Solid 3 Snake Eater um is the third game in
the Metal Gear Solid series, but the fifth game in the major Metal Gear series, the

cardboard box is a major fun item that you use to sneak around in.

And things you can do in that box are crazy, like an MGS one.

I remember you wanna get the the one you uh Sniper Wolf has wolves and you can get them to
pee on your box.

If you get them to pee on your box, then the wolves won't attack you when you have the box
on 'cause they'll re f recognize their scent.

Yeah, okay.

That's totally how wolves act.

Yep.

in MGS two, you want to get there's two boxes you can get in the first section, the
tanker.

You get a a dry box and a wet box.

Ah and if you have a wet box in a dry building, they'll think you're suspicious.

And if you have a dry box outside during the rain, they think you're being suspicious.

I do love the complexity of that.

It's very funny.

And then uh I think there are three.

No, I think there's just like five.

I could be wrong.

Between three and five boxes in MGS3 that take you all around Shagohat, not Shagohad, um
Salino Yarsk, the Grasny Grad, the the base that it's all in.

Man, my brain is fried.

Um anyway, uh it's all about being in a box, to be sustainable.

There you go.

I think we figured it out.

We figured it out.

That's it.

That's it.

That's the everything.

David Hayter and Hideoga Kojima knew it all.

So we start as we wrap up this episode of the Zerdot Podcast, I wanna do something a
little bit different and say just a few words once again about

My lovely mother, who passed away once again on June 19th, Elizabeth Bradley Kirk.

Um, and share, I guess, a little bit of a story about her.

Uh, so we can remember her.

I can remember her.

I'll I'll share stories throughout, but uh share a positive story, one that I keep
thinking of back, back upon, and recalling with uh a lot of fondness.

So I've told you, Crystal, that

Well, you know this about me.

I love music.

I I'm obsessed with music.

I think music happens to be the bee's nees when it comes to a lot of uh, you know, just
human-made things.

I just I vibe with music.

Um, and what might surprise you, I love music.

My brother also loves music.

Also, shout out to him.

He listens to our podcast.

My mother did not like music very much.

I don't wanna say she hated music, but it got close at times where she just thought all
music was noise.

And my father, you know, he appreciates the lyrics of music.

He's a big Bob Dylan fan, but he he would he would be honest in saying that music is not
his forte.

So the fact that my mother produced two sons who love music is kind of interesting.

An anomaly.

Um but I'm bringing this up because my mom really did not like music.

She did not

Wasn't a big fan of it.

There's a couple tunes that she could know the words to if the right time came to it from
her childhood.

But for the most part, she my brother was into country music and into like uh symphony orc
orchestral music during his teens.

And I was into like punk rock and even some pop music, and she thought it was all noise.

But one of the fondest memories that I have is uh my mom would often um when I was a kid,
like a really young kid, we're talking five, six, she'd bring me along for her in the car

while she ran errands throughout the day.

She went to the the drugstore, she went to the grocery store, she went to a doctor's
appointment, she did this, that, the other thing.

And sometimes I'd have to go with her, but it was a treat when I got to sit in the car
alone.

Now that might sound crazy to you, like sitting in the car alone, but like when I got to
sit in the car and alone, I got to listen to the radio.

Now, this is how old we are.

No CD player.

It was a tape deck that bar that didn't even work, I don't think.

And all we had was FM radio.

And

I I would try to listen to all kinds of music, but I recall the one type of music that my
mother didn't get upset if she came into the car and listened to when I was listening to

it was classic music.

I think it was like 98.1 was the station for classic music here.

And by classic, we're talking like 60s music, 50s and 60s, somewhat 70s music.

So I would try to, if it was a quick trip, pop in like that station.

And

One time I pop into a track and I I catch like the the middle of the track and the music
mesmerizes me.

It just like it it it speaks to my soul.

It's like it's it's a melody I'd heard a bunch of times before, but I know I'd never heard
it before.

I catch some of the words, and then my mom comes into the car, you hear that ding ding,
ding ding of the car door, like saying, Hey, the door door is opening.

The song's transitioning out, doing the fade out.

The DJ doesn't even say what that song was before getting to the next song.

And I'm like, mom, mom, what was that song?

What was that song?

She said, What, what, what was that song?

I'm trying to hum to her what the song was.

And I think I know what the melody is, and I hum it to her, and I think I say a couple of
little words from it.

And she didn't really recognize it.

She says, I don't know what song that is.

And I'm like, God damn it.

I don't think I said god damn it.

I was five or six, but I was like,

I was frustrated and I kept obsessing over the song over and over and over again.

The song that I loved, you know.

And something about a horse.

Who knows?

Um, but I loved that song and I never heard it again, never knew what the title was,
never, never ran into it ever again.

I forgot about it.

And years later, on my tenth birthday, my mom hands me kind of a a preliminary birthday
gift.

And it's this flat square piece of paper thing.

It's like a in an envelope of some kind.

And I cut it open and I open it up and it's a vinyl.

You know, my dad had a massive vinyl collection, brother had a couple vinyls.

Brother was more into CDs and tapes.

Here's a vinyl, and it had the words America on it.

I'm like, America?

What the fuck's America?

And mom said, flip over the back.

And I flip over the back, and I'm like, I saw a track there.

Wait, the horse with no name.

Wait, do I know that song?

And she started humming the melody that I hummed to her exactly once.

I'm like, my God, it's the song.

And for those of you that are listening, you know the song is The Horse with No Name by
America.

Classic, amazing, incredible song.

And we popped into the vinyl and I listened to it and it was the song.

And I was amazed by the fact that my mom remembered this song.

But I'm more amazed by this.

She didn't like music.

At least she said she she wasn't privy to it.

When I say she didn't like music, anytime any kind of music was on, she'd say, Turn it
down, turn it down, or turn it off.

She didn't want to hear it.

She'd even say the words.

It's just all noise.

It was very rare for her to say that was pretty music.

For someone like her.

To have remembered the melody that I hummed to her and some of the words.

And she didn't recognize what it was.

But then she recited it in her head.

And then at some point went to a clerk, a music store clerk, and hummed to them the melody
that I said and the words.

And they pointed her to the album of America, self-titled.

And the track was The Horse with No Name.

That's truly remarkable.

It speaks about what people can do when they truly love someone.

Yeah, it really does.

Uh

I've been in the car whenever I've had to drive, I literally just pop in that one song and
I I play it on loop forever, over and over and over again.

It's a great song.

Recommend it.

Hope we don't get demonetized.

We probably will.

Who cares?

But I I I hope to share more stories about her in that regard, but uh

We had a complex relationship, but the moments in which mom really loved her sons and
loved her family and

did you know what we might call acts of service.

It really meant a lot.

Yeah.

It's a beautiful story.

Thanks, Mom.

To mom's everywhere.

Folks, if you want to know where you can tune into uh us, well

First of all, how are you listening to us otherwise?

But you know where we are.

We are everywhere where podcasts are found.

But if you need a link, it's literally called theZero.podcast.com.

That's a website you can go to.

You can check us out on Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, Spotify, everywhere where podcasts
are broadcasted.

We are there.

Can't wait to see you next week when we dive into our next topic.

And folks, if I don't see you until then, stay human.